LOL, you are really hurting Zergs so much with your FB that would make them a little ill. You forget that FB is a one-unit-target spell that costs 50 Energy and has no AOE effect.
Good luck fighting 30 Infestors with your half-as.s.s.e.d FB.
Maybe if you made FB 25 Energy (after all they nerffed the damage by 50%) that would be something with Rapid-Fire.
So is snipe.
That actually would be very interesting to test.
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What has Snipe to do with FB? Are you asking to make Snipe an AOE spell?
Snipe is a single target 50 energy spell.
Yea, cast by a cloaked unit that has 100hp can cast EMP and Nuke that are both AOE.
Why you bring issues that have nothing in common with the fight against energy units (EMP, FB)?
I don’t really understand why Blizzard keep thinking that Zerg is well balanced against Protoss. I keep watching many streams of Korean players. Since few months I haven’t seen any game won by Protoss in PvZ in late game. None of the player could find a way to win against massive Infestors and Corruptors army. I believe few things are imbalanced with Infestors.
- Range of the parasite is to high: It should be nerfed from 9 to i.e. 7
- Ability to parasite being burrowed
- Energy cost of infested terran is to low: It costs only 25 of energy. Having in mind that Infestor can have up to 200 energy we can imagine army of infested terrans produced by 20 Infestors: (20 x 8 = 160 units in couple of seconds). These kind of army can destroy literally everything in few seconds.
- Speed of Infestors - these can easily run away from being hit by Disruptors.
- Infested terrans take credits of all Zerg’s damage and armor upgrades.
- Bug where infested terrans air attack ignores opponents armor.
I’m not professional player - only a watcher. However I can confirm by watching dozen of hours of streams how defendless is Protoss against Zerg in late game. Some of the above should be addressed by Blizzard.
To confirm the above I would present couple of tactics Protoss players tried against Zerg in late game - always failed:
- Carriers + Disruptors + HT: Carriers had to keep a distance from Infestors to not get parasite. HT has to low range to hit Infestors with a storm. Infestors are to fast to get a hit from Disruptor and HTs. Keep in mind that Infestors are backed up by Corruptors. Carriers can be easily stop by Infested terrans killing Interceptors. Corruptors take care of carriers in the same time.
- Tempest + Carriers: Infestors can easily “run away” from being in the range of Tempets. Infested terrans take care or interceptors and corruptors do the rest.
- Voidrays + Carriers: Similar as above.
In each of above we need to keep in mind that usually Zerg makes Brodlords as well which makes a fight even more hard to win by Protoss. As an extra Interceptors cost resources and Infested terrans no - so it easy for zerg just make couple of battles and wait once Protoss is out of resources. Infested terrans costs only an energy.
Last thing is supply - Infestor, Corruptor and Broodlord cost 2 supplies. Infested terran cost none of supply. In opposite Carrier cost 6, Tempest 5, Voidray 4. Quick math proves that number of units in Protoss army is maximum half of what Zerg can have.
On one of the stream I recently saw: STATS was playing against Zerg for a 1 hour and 15 minutes and eventually lost because he went out of resources (He started with 16K cristals). That replay would be a perfect example how defendless Protoss is against Zerg in late game. He made no mistakes - but eventually lost with and army of Infestors and Corruptors.
Maybe Blizzard can propose some good tactic.
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which can one shot HT, while HT cannot one shot Ghost (not with the nerf they received). On top of that, Ghost moves twice as fast when compare to HT
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Yes, cause pro sporting event winners should be compared to throwing a dice. It seems like you are great with math, but kind of lacking in common sense. Stats of rolling dice would be great if the game had no strategy, or units. If people just showed up to claim money and a trophy and was picked at random then yes I can see how it compares to throwing dice.
Stats is great to see if a race is over or under performing but should never be looked at random chance.
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LOL, the chance is a factor but part of the job of a good General is to figure-out ways to minimise that. That’s why in SC2 the ability to think fast and deep and to make wise-decisions on time is more important than the animal-ability to type fast and behave like a headless chicken!
Chance do exist (an Nexus that survives with…1 hp), but a really good player should never count on that…
Let’s count all Protoss and Terran combat-oriented abilities:
Protoss:
Adept Psionic Transfer
Stalker Blink
Sentry Force Field and Guardian Shield
High Templar Feedback and Psionic Storm]
Dark Templar Blink
Warp Prism Warp-in
Disruptor Purification Nova
Phoenix Graviton Beam
Void Ray Prismatic Alignment
Oracle Pulsar Beam
Mothership (nexus)Mass Recall and Time Warp
Terran:
Marine and Marauder Stimpack
Reaper KD8 Charge
Ghost** Steady Targeting** and EMP Round
Cyclone Lock On
Raven Build Auto-Turret and Interference Matrix and Anti-Armor Missile
Battlecruiser Yamato Cannon
So with race have more combat-oriented skills?
if a number of units having combat-oriented skills is an indication of how skilled you are, then Serral and Maru would go for compositions consisting mostly of unit’s having skills, but we do not see it.
Those you are wrong.
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It’s been a while since this was posted and, quite frankly these changes completely destroy protoss in most scenarios. While many zergs and (mainly) terrans compain about protoss it is really hard to counter terran aggressive styles without chargelots. These changes boost stuff like MMM / 2 base pushes and make it much harder for protoss to counter attack.
As I see it, most of the pvts that end in those scenarios are basically a race between the terran that’s trying to end the game by out amassing the protoss player, and the protoss trying to survive and get to things like colossi or hight templars. Charge does allow zealots to fill the hole of protoss early game 'cause they are ok against tanks (if u can flank) and marines/marauders (who will nonetheless keep kiting u … but u get some time to get better counters). Stalkers are … well pretty much trash after the first few minutes unless u have alphastar-like APM.
I’m not quite sure how to balance out these nerfs, but the initial idea i gave of making charge’s impact increase with atk lvl upgrades (thus retaining its current +8 after tier 3 atk upgrades) would mitigate the issue, as by that point both terran and zerg players have units to counter mass zealots like banelings …
Another idea that comes to mind is the reversal of the previous forge research time nerf … as that would give protoss players the ability to gain a lead based on forge upgrades, which would allow counter-play from both sides.
One interesting change i’ve seen suggested on some pro-player streams would be to buff stalkers. This is actually an interesting idea cause to fully utilize any stalker buffs the player has to have some pretty solid micro … and it would come down to a skill based fight in early skirmishes … while allowing stalkers to better scale into the mid-game (unlike now…)
Overall, I still believe that a lategame buff (bigger than just reducing intercept build time VERY SLIGHTLY) is needed, because otherwise it becomes a race against the clock (especially in pvz), because of infestors and broodlords producing free units … and, in the case of infestors, being able to cast spells while burrowed (which allows litle counter play given their range).
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Yes, that is a far better way of looking at it then just throwing dice around.
I believe that you forget about some of Terrans combat-oriented abilities:
Thor High Impact Payload, Explosive Payload
Medivac Heal, Ignite Afterburners
Liberator Defender/Fighter Mode, Advanced Ballistics
Banshee Cloaking Field, Hyperflight Rotors
Widow Mine Sentinel Missiles
So in total combat-oriented abilities Protoss vs. Terran is 11 vs. 11 - for me looks like equality.
…and Protoss:
Sentry Hallucination
Oracle Stasis Ward, Revelation
Now, i hardly see a terran applying Healing manually with Medevac or Triggering WM by hand…
The point was spells that are cast manually not controled by AI, in that way we can include SB healing and Barrier-activation (it can be turned off) and Interceptor autoproduction…
So the original list was the most correct one.
I didn’t forget about them. I was talking about Combat-oriented skills, so skills that are used just before the fight(several seconds) or in the middle of a battle.
Skills you mentioned were excluded because they meet at least one of the following points.
A) Have Long duration (Revelation)
B) Can be trigger way before the engagement (Thor, tank and liberator modes, Hallucination)
B) Are passive (Zealot charge or Medivac healing) (like Goba point out)
C) That can be trigger from the safe distance (Tactical jump)
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Yes it would be foolish to argue with your point. Things are balanced assymetrically, while Protoss is the most Spell-heavy and require a complex set of skills to do battle with 5-6 types of units that work in unison (otherwise he is lost), he has easier way of base-management (one probe instantly builds a whole base with extra tech if required), terrans have much more difficult mechanics in this direction. Zergs have quite different mechanics and are in no need to produce multiple production structures (12 GW, 3 Robo and 5 SG) or 6 Rax…
But if pure combat is discussed Protoss has the most complicated operations even if that does not require 1000APM.
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OK - I didn’t get your point at first. In that case must agree with your opinion.
I was reading through the replies and found one interesting buff for Protoss to make PvZ late game more balanced.
- Increase the range of HT Feedback spell from 9 to 10
- Make a HT Feedback spell cause radius effect and not single-unit only
That would make Zerg to be more micro-managed as HTs could wipe up Infestors energy if these wouldn’t be backed up by any ground-attack units.
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Nerfing a CORE unit in mid-season timing is just utterly nonsense. Even worse when you’re so called “Consultants” say Zealot is not even a core unit in every single game for protoss (quoting RootCatz) on this one. You’re listening to the wrong guys. And i wont even get started with the “no skill for controling zealots”… The zealot dance is over.
What you should do, is TO ADRESS LATE GAME protoss Carrier/tempest as it’s just as bad as it gets. Just MERGE them! Capital Ship w interceptors and Air weapon researchable. It would be Carrier but w a shot. Similar to BC.
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In TvZ, when 2 battle cruisers are teleported to you, and they have Yamato on the timing of 6 minutes, the zerg have nothing more to do except to suffer and soon admit defeat, even if he knew about the battle cruisers.
Please remove at least shooting on the go.
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