The game had a working model that pleased the community, the general public who is the general consumer of this game.
Yes invulnerable was bad… but at the same time, people had to adapt and people aren’t adapting because it is alright to have ‘Fun’ and it is alright to ‘One Trick’.
So even if they are running Junkrat against, Pharah, they know they are playing this game wrong, but they don’t care because Blizzard deems it is ok to behave and play like this.
Which falls back to Mercy, she wasn’t impossible to stop. I lost matches because I got spawn camped… I got ambushed and I was assassinated. Thumbs up to the enemy DPS, they did their job to neutralise me.
Yet these so called “Pro’s” whine that it isn’t feasible to constantly eliminate Mercy who could be the sole reason their team is losing. Lately since I am playing Widowmaker, it sometimes take people way too long to swap over to something else that can counter me.
It’s like people want to continue having fun, but stress themselves out because they can’t have it, because no one else is switching and that alone is what generates tilt and hate in this game.
You could have one poor soul panicking to switch between the roles but they themselves know that it is not possible to make a difference. If the team is badly matched up, it might be better to throw the match than to put too much effort on guys who want to have their own fun over team victory.
Also I don’t understand why some people want to win within the last minute of the game, when they themselves have been holding back and playing for lols and giggles because, we were winning and had the time advantage.
Well said, a number of us have stated this fact ourselves, myself included. Whilst I want to remain neutral because being just bias to Mercy is not fair as I am now largely a flex player who has finally branched out into DPS and not just Support/Tanking.
The thing is, minor changes were needed, not this gamble of a rework. Some things are balance but no one is happy at this current moment in time and Mercy is the target of commentary slander, Pro hatred and Forum warfare.
Step 1. Announce to the community that 1.0 release Mercy will replace current Mercy on the PTR for a 2 week time period from xx/xx/xxxx to xx/xx/xxxx.
Step 2. Allow 2-3 weeks to take place before this goes to PTR. Give everyone the chance to download and get ready to participate.
Step 3. Take valid statistical evaluations of all games on PTR during this time frame. Making sure you have enough of the community participating.
Step 4. After this 2 week time frame and data compilation decide if original Mercy is in fact the better option for the health of the game.
Disclaimer: Blizzard is out absolutely nothing by doing this. In fact it would give all valid reasoning for keeping Mercy the way she is live. Reasoning enough for most people, me included, who feel the old Mercy is the better Mercy.
We needed minor nerfs while the buffs we have today for Ana which would balance the power levels between supports.
I can only compare those two because Moira was shortly introduced after the mercy rework and overshadowed by OP mercy.
I also play all heroes alike and my dps choices are mostly Off meta so I try to avoid that because I will get flammed for picking certain dps which their case should also be adressed. I’m not biased and I think everyone should have enjoyable and fun abilities. Nothing feels as good as nano boosting my rein as he gains all of his HP back and destroys the enemy back line or getting a sick sleep or anti grenade with Ana. It feels very rewarding and impactful.
this rework was a failure. Proof is 13 nerfs + ever since the rework. Plus other “bug fixes” of her only utility damage boost.
They nerfed her healing making her not do the thing she does best : healing. litterally the only healer that does NO damage cant heal properly. The only thing she does is heal yet they took that away. All to keep res as an ability they’re doing ANYTHING. All to keep this “rework”. the damage boost nerf and other support buffs woulda been enough because no more hanzo combo but they JUST HAD to go that far. Again too far.
Checking this week in GM ana has a 13.38% pickrate and mercy with 2% mostly as a secondary healer. Their way of balancing is just shifting power and not real balance. It’s about time to sit down and look at ideas about the game and think about “balance” and “fun”. they need to think further and take it back a step. You balance a hero compared to other heroes and try to secure the fun and enjoyability of them.
Like let’s say I was a dev , I’d read feedback for the least and try to think of the community and balance. If something doesnt work out then be creative and CHANGE it. There is no limits but they need to ask people who have experience with the hero and are not biased toward the hero that want to give proper ideas.
There isn’t only mercy being ignored in balance : mei/torb/Bastion/symmetra. Their players were giving interesting suggestions and feedback to make them more fun and viable yet are still to this day not answered since forever.
Again the arguments for the rework were too shallow and any experienced mercy player would debunk them.
I remember mercy 1.0 I saw Eeveea (more than 1000 hours mercy player from GM to top 500) play back then and he would use res on a single target= tempo res 90% of the time was good enough to build it again to keep the fight going.
He didnt hide and res yet was still top 500. It really shows how better mercy players played her. and as I explained in my other comment. The hide and res tactic doesnt work.
Every time they change healer, so meta doesn’t become stale, there is outrage among heroes that are being left behind. It repeats with each change, but Mercy happened to withstand more nerfs than any other healer, before finally falling out of favor.
Well, i do understand that it’s not like “That idea is good! We do that immediately!”. Thinking about the possibilities which come with new features is very important in games, especially in games like OW.
While working out the ability and the others my main focuse was to question if they are fun for the Mercy player and Fair for the enemy/other heroes.
Mercy currently has the most powerful E ability in the game. With said E ability Mercy is only balanced with nerfs to her base kit (which was never the problem to begin with), an Ult which is more fit for a DPS than a support (the support functionality is not only very weak, it’s also very uncreative and for the most part unengaging and frustrating for the enemy) and restrictions on that ability no other hero has (E res is still very frustrating for everyone).
This is the anchor point from which we start. The goal is to keep the balance as it is, but making Mercy more fun to play as, with and against.
We look at her Ult first.
We already know that Mass Res works in a balanced way, but it really had to main issues. The incentive to hide and wait for a big res and the missing preemptive counter play.
The incentive to hide and wait for a big res:
Something which is really frustrating for the team and the enemy. This needs to be discouraged (Let’s say the SR exploit is left out, which is already discouraging).
We need to remove the savetienes of Mass Res first, that means invulnerability needs to go as well as the fact that it is instant. And to force her more to use it in the fight it gets a LOS restriction.
that would also fix the problem of the missing preemptive counter play as well.
The fairnis for the enemy is there, but now it needs to be fair and fun for the Mercy player as well.
This is why you still can use movement during the cast -> Mercy’s gameplay is not disrupted by a slow down or stop
To give Mercy more survivability and a reason to use Ult res in the fight she get’s the healing burst -> Better survivability after the res but not unkilleble, gives another reason to stay in the fight. Is not abusable for Tank heavy comps.
LOS restriction is not applicable on shields and destructibles -> prevents ress behind walls but keeps it fairly easy to use in the fight
Regarding her Ult, we looked at the old Mass Res and thought about the issues of it and how we can solve said problems, while keeping Mercy fun and fair and how we can make space for a new E ability. Sure, this is a net nerf to Mass Res, but one which makes it more fair for enemies and not frustrating for the Mercy player. On top of that it’s nothing which makes her superior to other supports or a counter to herself.
I will cut it short with the E ability.
I already said that an ability like Pacify is the only reasonable way to go in terms of that. And yes, while i see that a debuff is strong, it’s nothing as powerfull as E res. It surely has impact and forces the enemy Tank’s to retreat, but as i said before, the power of that is no reason to pick her all the time. The CD might be to short and things like that, but this is far away from unfixable.
The effect occurs at end of the cast. The important thing is that Mercy is not stoped or slowed in her movement and that res can be used at anytime.
Again, i don’t see an issue in that. Other supports can do just the same. Zen and moira not but they can just kill the enemy which is the longest downtime in the game. all supports have more or less 2 reasons why you should pick them. Mercy only had one and that was res. By nerfing res and giving her another reason… that’s just in line with the other sups.
I see that (And as we already said, nerfing parts of the suggested kit is no problem. It’s made to be easily changeable), but Pacify is by far not as strong and broken as E res.
On top of that, if you call Pacify a semi-ultimate ability, than what is Sleep dart for you? Defense Matrix? Concussive Blast?
I don’t mean that offensive or so but there are many far more powerful abilities in the game, on heroes which also have very strong Ult’s.
And about the 25%.
We mostly said that an increase in the CD or a slightly shorter duration should be the first thing to look at, if nerfs are needed. If we go immediately to the effect and nerf that, yes in that case the ability becomes questionable. But that’s again just the same with literally all the other abilities in the game.
We agreed that 30-33% is good for the start with 4s, because it only does said thing, reducing Dmg. If it would do more then i could agree with 25%, but not in this case.
In terms of E sport… We tryed to make it so that Mercy is picked, but not always. This is the goal, to have complexity in that scene and not monotony.
And if she get’s picked more and needs nerfs, this version would be far easier to nerf, without making Mercy boring or frustrating for the player.
That on a basic level.
No matter if they just like to make games or do it for the enjoyment of players, all companies want to make money at the end of the day. Mercy is a pretty big anchor point for that.
Many Mercy players and some other left the game because of the rework (Be it that the overall game was unfun for them or that they were bored to play only Mercy, to play against her and stuff like that) and fixing Mercy in a way which makes not only Mercy players come back (Because tehy see her to be more fun again) but also other players. That mean more players are willing to buy stuff like Lootboxs or merch stuff.
That was more or less my thought process.
I still don’t see her to be more powerful with that change. It might be better then the old version, but alos has more situations in which it could not work well (less allrounder like). It’s not as OP as 2.x but also more fair for the enemy.
Looking at things as in “play with, as and against” and so far i see more something which can work really well.
I’m trying that as well. If one end is not happy no one will be.
I have a question about that:
In the Beta, as far as i know, Mercy was not able to move at all right? During the cast.
That’s a pretty important thing to consider, because with more movement comes more decision making you can make in terms of survivability.
Also after 2 years… Players learn the game as well over time. So a cast like that on her Ult, which other heroes with less movement have as well, is not devil’s work.
This is true, but the difference with the solo res is the context in which it’s used. Mass Res was used mostly at the end of a fight, a situation in which Mercy will have a hard time to survive.
The context for solo res is very different. Not only will you have other teammates around you most of the time, res is also on a static CD and the chance of impacting the fight with it in a positive way for your team is far bigger than it is to have a negative impact (It’s almost not possible to wast it).
The context is very important in that regard.
I agree with you on the 60 HP/s. I said that would be to much and that 50-55HP/s would be better, but i got outvoted in that. With the rest, i don’t agree.
Ana would still have more things with Anti/healing nade and sleep dart for example. And the burst heal in the suggested Ult would be way to situational considering that this is not the biggest value in her Ult and that you have to charge it first.
We most of that already in the game.
Ana: Very strong against this Mercy which is more healing focused than res focused
Brigitte: A quick stun can kill Mercy’s Ult before it can activate (Same with many other DPS’s)
Lucio: Far better in engaging into fights and enables other comps
Zen: Okay he synergises well with Mercy
Moira: Far better in Tank heavy comps
Almost all Tank’s: Can block and eliminate Mercy’s effects
That’s why we are considering it as a concept. I don’t see issues with the healing burst, because it’s not overhealing, only for Teammates which are stillup and the only reasonable way to give Mercy survivability after the res. 100HP would still be okay, a longer CD for Pacify is no problam as well, 50-55HP/s is cool and so on.
I see a lot of potential in that idea, not only because it’s so well received this far, but also because of the easy ways to balance it without making Mercy unfun to play.
I could see if it doesn’t look like it but i want that as well. I want to see a Mercy which is not just fair for the enemy, but also fun for the Mercy player and other support mains.
In short, Yes. In my opinion Pacify is a fair ability with all the other treatments in the suggestion.
The ability itself is not even close to be as powerful as E res and only raises Mercy’s skillceiling, without obliterating other supports utility/viability. On top of that her Old Ult, which was way to situational back then and considered as a troll pick, has now reasonable survivability and counter play with a good use for the team in the fight. And the amount of things she can do is still okay for her if i look at other sups.
About the comparison with that theoretical Zen cahnge.
This one is just insane and exaggerated. Pacify with the other idea in the OP would be not even close to be as ridiculous.
Yes. As a Qol change it’s something very good and in terms of evading unwanted player behavior it’s also very helpful. On top of that, if it comes wiht the other changes to Mass Res, it’s a nice thing to balance the decreased survivability/ increased difficulty of Mass Res.
Yes, but probably with further adjustments. The idea is to give Mercy something she didn’t had in 1.0 times. An ability which makes her viable in the midfight. The nerfs to Mass Res compensate enough to allow a new, not too strong, E ability. Still, if to strong, simple changes to the CD, duration or her overall HP/s could fix a power issue.
Yes, too less the ability would be pointless. WHile with that it’s not impossible to still finish targets.
Yes and no. The goal is a rasonable pickrate which goes not to high.
A 100% warranty that she won’t be OP/UP or just a good pick is impossible. But a balanced pickrate with less concerns is predictable with these changes.
They are worked out to function together, so yes.
In short, this aims for a more or less perfect support Meta. Counter picking would be key. So yes to both.
No. THe counterplay is already in the game and that not only on Supports.
PS: Sorry if this thing is a bit messy. I wrote this over multiple days lol
But at the same time, Mercy is bursting back 3/4 of her health and DPS, for tanks that is a Quarter of their HP and with 60HPS she will be healing and refarming a 2nd ult.
The Ult charge rate was also reduce so it will be east to regain.
Also despite the 1.75 second and slow down, there are still moments where Mercy is ignored/missed or didn’t get burst down in time, usually being punished after the res.
Of course the ‘Effects occur at the end’ of casting cannot be applied to Mercy as it is too detrimental to her solo survivability.
Also do we not agree that disengagement was a valid play style? Even other supports would back out of heavy fire and whilst it looks bad, jumping in for a last minute res will always occur.
The LoS I can agree with, but why should we add a 150HP Burst? If the res is near instant, it will be like taking damage to about 50% HP then boom, max health and then feed off the tanks to gain as much Ult Charge as possible?
The Values needs to be adjusted if we are going to have Bursting. Since Bursting will create a Pseudo-Invulnerable.
Yes but she is denying 1/3 of peoples damage being dealt. This alone, whilst not as powerful as E res, is still a pretty strong ability. Not to mention, she has Burst heal that recovers 2/3 of her own HP and most DPS’s and can recover a 1/4, of most tanks HP.
Considering Ana’s position, she can solo sustain the tanks and even if she can’t get round to recharging them, Mercy has at least 2 big batteries to regain Ult Charge.
The idea is good, but it is currently too good because the value being given is too valuable for Mercy. She alone can solo heal in most situations. She can’t heal reckless idiots but are we going to deny her solo healing capabilities just to push these changes?
A compromise has to be applied somewhere, either in Burst Amount, the way Res is casted, Her base kit or in Pacify. We can’t give her one powerful ability after another.
So basically like the Beta Version/the current version of Mercy, the very idea/change that they abandoned.
I mean… not to be rude… but if they were going to have a 1 second cast time res occurring at the end of Res, they would have done that first rather than do all these reworks. Which means they might avoid the idea.
The problem is that it feels like other heroes besides Mercy has not been considered.
It feels like the idea is like 'Screw it, DPS hates us, lets come up with an idea that screws them over!!!
As a Tank, I would like to be able to make progress and push the front line rather than having my ult charge prolonged or suffering from 2 to possible 3 moments of Damage Dampening and being unable to make that push.
If space cannot be made then the DPS cannot make their play. Thus it all falls down the Support meta, where we are in over time, Mercy is just bursting resurrect, solo supporting and damage dampening and having Ana, Zen, Brig or Moira to help her as well.
Mercy isn’t an offensive Healer, Zen is a debuffer and Moira is the opposite of Mercy, she is an aggressive Attacker.
Also we are falling into the level of the DPS accusers. Mercy was way more than just being a Res bot. She had the potential to solo heal, to solo carry to such an extent where Res and Valk was just a … you button. Not only that, people coming from none shooter background can pick her up easily, she was friendly to use and easy to use without having to worry about aiming, balancing attack and healing, sticking orbs to people or alternating speed and heals.
The res has been nerfed but another 2 buffs to counteract that has been slapped on. You may as well just have die on res Mercy, nobody has to feel the frustration of a sudden burst and a 6v4 becoming a 6v6 again and matches going into overtime because the supports are just raw carrying the match.
It’s not like we can always rely on DPS and Tanks to do a proper job either.
Yes but my point is… how are you going to justify the idea had this been a business presentation?
Knowing that Dev’s have a roadmap and other heroes to work on?
Ok, we go with this idea… what then? we set this to the current value but then we have to go through a gruelling 6 months of reworks/tweaking to get the perfect balance?
No, they will not give you the resource to do it.
Which is why Jeff is saying that Mercy is done because they achieved their immediate goal and can focus on other heroes. They do not want an idea that requires rework upon rework.
I love the idea but even I can logically see how this will lead to at least 2~3 reworks and then a panic attack as Mercy’s pick rate possibly creeps again. They spent a year trying to knock her down from first place to allow other Supports to be played? Why undo it all?
But despite our hate towards Mercy, is this not already achieved? The World Cup is showing a mix of gameplay, Mercy has been used… as far as upper Management of OverWatch is concerned, Mercy is currently in a satisfactory position.
Once again, it all boils down to resource and Blizzards immediate goals for Mercy and OverWatch as a whole. They don’t want the possibility of Mercy becoming dominant again. Of course they want Mercy fix but even in such a state, she is currently ‘Balance’ in the way they expect her to be.
They are making money with our without us Mercy players. People are complaining that Mercy on a weekly basis is dropping in pick rate… it doesn’t matter because she hasn’t dropped to the tragic extent that Roadhog did.
If she is at their expected Pick Rate value, then they do not care. For all know, new players will come in to fill our shoes. If Overwatch dies, Blizzard still have other games in their portfolio and they can always make something new.
Playing with Mercy and Playing as her is fine, but you are ignoring what it is like to Play against her.
Take her Burst heal for example… It would be similar to Brig sudden Burst Heal effect (minus the overflow) but applied to 6 people. It is already annoying to have an engage DPS getting suddenly burst as they are equally matched in a fight without support.
Then there is the moment Mass Res occurs, yes it is Mercy’s classic ultimate, but as your about to win… getting mass res isn’t always great and annoyingly Burst heal will negate the downsides of a clutch res/tempo res. As people get bursted and res at the same time.
Then as per usual it is fight Mercy or fight the resurrected.
Then there is Damage Dampening that dampens DPS/Tanks from dealing damage. With a 10 second cool down and an engagement lasting about 30 ish seconds… it means Mercy can do it at best 2 to 3 times whilst maintain strong healing and strong sub support.
If the Tanks and DPS cannot win their fights, then it becomes a team fight between who has the better support and coordination.
I feel like DPS will definitely kick up a fuss, since Ana and Brig can burst heal and Mercy can AoE with LoS burst heal with a significant amount which always is annoying enough…
To also having to worry about what ults have been expended and who was put down and resurrected.
To also knowing that in an engagement where Mercy can nerf your damage and largely outheal the damage you do… you will end up just feeding her for another bout of Res bursting.
I was going off the patch notes… the cast was 1 second and after the revert they rolled with it for live… and then it was bug fixes and range fixes and then after that it stayed that way until 1.0 where invulnerable was introduce.
Plus since the effects were immediate, just being frozen for a second didn’t matter… usually you die during the time you try to GA to someone to get to safety.
Though still… in the two years people still think Junkrat vs Pharah is the best way to go.
Res can also be used Mid fight as well, the more important thing is ult tracking and when to use it. Since clutching onto it was never ideal as you could die whilst in the process of keeping everyone alive.
Plus people demanded clutch/tempo res over Mass res, you actually get told off for clutching the res too long.
As long as Ana doesn’t get nerf, she will serve as a strong Anti Heal support. As for 50HPS, that isn’t too big of a margin from 60HPS… it is more difficult but at the same time… people keep playing like we have mass instant res on hand. Since we don’t, people just have to grow up and play a bit more disciplined.
Ana will be a popular sub but then again, just like 1.0… people after the 2016 world cup, just transitioned out of Ana + so and so to just having Mercy + someone.
This is true but there is a matter of timing… whilst the potential is there… how many people actually stun a resurrecting Mercy.
This guy is looking more likely to get a support rework because he isn’t improving at the moment
He already does for the current version of Mercy, besides that… Ana would be a good companion for Mercy.
As long as she is able to maintain resource. Most of the healing will have to come from Mercy and she doesn’t hold up well with tank heavy opposition which is a -1 for Moira and a +1 for Ana in a support duo with Mercy.
Except they can’t block res of burst healing and in the moment where they are trying to register what had happened, Mercy has the opportunity to damage dampen them as they are exhausted from their engagements and in the moment where they have to brace themselves for another re-engagement
100HP burst will look ok as it will be around a 1/5 to 1/6 of the HP for tanks and about 50% for Mercy and other DPS.
As for her HPS, keeping it at 50 should be fine but again, a concept will only get you so far if you don’t refine it. If we are serious about pushing this forward, we need to think like a Blizzard employee and what they are looking to immediately do with this game.
The direction is good but it seems the idea just stopped there and rather than refining parts of the idea when it is challenged, it is becoming a stubborn push for a this is the only solution.
Also the Zen thing, it feels like that… it is like ok… if we revert Mercy to how she was, which we know she was strong and popular… why are we giving her more utility?
Not everyone on the OverWatch management team is going to be familiar with the game… not all of them are going to be Pro Players or active Players. Heck some of them probs don’t even play Overwatch or know what it is about.
Their experience might only extend to the point of internal testing and that’s it. They will only look at the results and the figures generated in monthly/quarterly reports. How do you expect to convince them that this is a better idea when Mercy is technically falling into their desired place?
I tell you now… they will not even consider touching or looking at her unless she is in a critical state. At this current moment in time… Brig will get a tweaked to make her less ‘high win rate’ and Lucio will get some dev time because he has dropped quite significantly.
These two have a likely chance of being looked at, before Mercy. That is the harsh reality of things.
Right if Res is already jarring enough… how do we prevent Burst healing from being an overkill addition? We are literally giving out 6 Brigitte Repair Pack in an instant without overflow.
It is already enough to get a sudden Brig burst, but to have 1~5 people getting a sudden burst within the immediate vicinity and two Burst Healers to support Mercy… how are we going to kill the enemy team?
Mercy was already strong, beginning Middle and End… her healing alone was powerful enough that if you don’t deal with a good Mercy, she will just carry the game on healing alone and then she would res like it is a massive … you moment
The issue is that, we have to assassinate Mercy. Spawn Camp her, isolate her and render her mobility useless. A Dead Mercy is a Useless Mercy is the only way to win if we allow her to make her plays.
Yes but it renders Tanking and DPS’ing horrible and without a Debuff cleaner… Mercy will be really strong.
What happens if your tank can’t create space because they keep losing Damage? What happens to the DPS if Brawlers and mid range shoots and flankers can’t do their damage dealing… it becomes a meta where long range DPS becomes a norm to avoid Pacify and the Tanks just hating Mercy as nobody can penetrate shields.
And when Shield destroyers get hit and it takes longer to shield bust… then where does that leave us? It becomes a very Dive the support, EXPECIALLY Mercy so she cannot damage reduce us or gain her ult.
In which case, they have achieve their immediate goal. If this idea risk boosting her winrate they will have to rework her until she is dropped to the dirt.
Only reason Rein and Ana fell from grace was because they wanted to shake things up. The same is happening to Mercy and D.Va, with D.Va naturally dropping and Mercy still stubbornly in place.
Is there genuinely no alternatives?
In which case haven’t they achieved their immediate goal to have any and all heroes selected?
The World cup is already reflecting this, if something don’t work… swap. Why are we strengthening Mercy with changes that will require more tweaks and reworking again as well as making her a possible must pick main healer?
Thats fine, it is always nice to have a civil debate.
I feel like DPS and Tanks will need a buff and a specialist Support hero will have to be introduced. One that can specifically negate buff effects and plays around it
Because at the moment, the game lacks that… if that hero exist, then these changes to Mercy doesn’t matter.