Why are gold games easier than bronze?

Competitive Discussion
61

MMR is not the problem per say. First problem is the game is ancient and a wasteland in terms of participation. Second problem is the game is so infested with smurfs and alt accounts SR literally has no meaning. MMR has the perception it sucks cause of all the alt account that are outplaying their SR. Blizzard simply needs to do a better job to get accounts SRS to match up quicker with MMR. Not the 200 + games it seems that it takes.

At times I literally can’t tell a difference between low gold games and low bronze games when it comes to the speed of the game and overall skill. But again when you infest a game with smurfs and alt accounts (one of the biggest killers of a ladder) you shouldnt be shocked that skill is all over the place across the board.

OW2 absolutely must have some sort of anti smurfing measures and a real good incentive for people to keep queuing. You are a fool if you think any of these “new accounts” are anything else but plat plus smurfs trying to screw around in lower ranks. No one in their right mind is going to join a 6 year old game to get farmed.

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62

Um…bit of a quibble. See the bottom for why I’m quibbling.

As we see with decayed players, matches are only made on MMR. MMR is the accurate number, but being so accurate it does things that the devs have decided they don’t want the rank number (SR) to do, such as 1) not move on a win or loss 2) not move with decay 3) not move with punishment.

People who say that SR can be different than MMR are, technically correct, but it’s patently false to say that matches are made based on SR. There is an SR limit for groups, yes. That’s part of the confusion and something a lot of people have wrongly incorporated into their tribal knowledge. A lobby of 12 solo-queue players will not be matched based on their SR at all.

Now, when I say technically correct, while this does happen with decayed players, there’s absolutely zero evidence whatsoever that an average player with experience will be placed in a game where their MMR and SR are so different as to make a meaningful difference. If the game knows your MMR, it has you ranked and all you have to do is play enough games for the (IMHO stupidly overprecise) SR system to catch up (or down, in some cases). In the meantime, you’re not going to be an entirely different tier of skill, unless you count 2499 vs 2500, as an example.

There also is a range of acceptable MMR differential between teams that’s expressed in an expected result percentage, but this goes to prove that the idea that matches are made on SR, then balanced on MMR is simply wrong. Apparently, it can be the case that matches just cannot be balanced.

The devs have repeatedly said that SR closely tracks MMR and gave the reasons for the difference. Part of the confusion is that they often conflated MMR and SR when speaking, which given that they’re essentially the same, it really only matters if you’re really trying to twist their words around or trying to discuss finer points.

I quibble because saying that it matches on SR is an essential core belief in the conspiracy theorists world view, which I know you want to deflate as much as I do, and apparently for similar reasons.

63

You should also read above what I wrote to m e r c y, but I had to laugh at this one, because I have been seeing it more lately.

You’re absolutely right.

It makes absolutely zero sense that the game knows you belong in any given tier, but does not actually put you in that tier.

It’s also never consistent, it’s just certain people who the game KNOWS belong in a tier higher than they currently reside, and they’re being thrown in those matches together.

Even if we had a set of 12 highly decayed players of all equal skill, they would rank up from decay playing 50/50 matches. We know this, because we can watch it happen in micro with individual decayed players.

It’s like people think the system works in the dumbest way imaginable, as if the people dedicating their lives to game design and coding can’t see the obvious problem with making SR independent from MMR. Done Crooger at its finest, I guess.

:cat:

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64

What are you referring to exactly when you mention decayed? As SR decay hasn’t been in the game since pre role queue.

65

Well, when we could see it then. Unless you think they’ve changed how MMR and SR work together since then, but all the posts about it I’ve ever seen on the matter come from the pre-role queue era, considering that statements were just making things worse.

It’s pretty clear SR is not actually a factor at all in matchmaking, just in group-queueing which is kinda opposite of matchmaking.

That doesn’t dispute your point and view that one single data point is being used, and that it’s essentially SR…it’s just that it’s not technically SR, it’s technically MMR, but MMR ~= SR. This undermines your point to a disingenuous reader, who can look at dev statements to determine that it’s obviously not based on SR.

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It also does not explain how in a comp game it shows both teams average SR — which are always quite near eachother.

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Of course it does. Since SR doesn’t vary much from MMR (because why would it, it’s basically the same concept), matching based on MMR will necessarily result in similar SR averages for teams.

Like, if MMR goes from 0-1 and SR goes from 0-5000, and they’re proportional, if you match based on 0.5 MMR, then you’re going to get people of 2500 SR. You only need one, you can’t match on SR and MMR both, and MMR is the real number, SR is the facade that allows decay (previously), punishment, and good-feels on a win where you had a 60% chance to win (and MMR doesn’t budge because no new information).

But again…in function, discussing MMR as separate from SR doesn’t make much difference. It’s just that the conspiracists have latched on to the fact that technically there is a difference to come up with this wild idea that the game matches on SR and then balances based on MMR and thus separates SR from MMR, creating a situation where a person’s SR can’t move.

But, by simply stating that MMR isn’t used, you fail to explain both why it exits in the first place and why the devs seem to say they match on it. When you say SR only is used, well, you open up the door to the conspiracy, and I don’t think you mean to nor want to do that.

68

Oh, ez pz…

Kaplan also addresses any concerns players might have about how the change could potentially impact matchmaking. He says “To us at Blizzard, SR is never used for matchmaking. We never even look at it, it’s just this number that only gets displayed to players.”

https://www.pcgamesn.com/overwatch/sr-decay

From after role-queue, regarding the removal of decay.

69

I think that shows me mmr and sr are basically the same then. Working as intended…

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70

Absolutely, also…thanks to you I found a very direct quote that says as much…not that they’ll care.

71

I have found the same thing, I sometimes play with my friend who is in bronze/silver and I often find the games in plat easier than when I play with him. Some games are very easy but many of them have a Smurf on the other team which is obviously way above my plat-ish skills. Also there are more throwers. You really have to carry a lot.

That said, we usually still win if we focus on objectives because although frustratingly good a lot of Smurf’s don’t seem to be trying to win, it’s just an ego thing for them I guess.

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72

“Harder” is a subjective experience. I’m actually not that surprised that one person, out of their usual element, would find a game “harder” even though the remaining 11 players are less skilled.

YOU don’t seem to presume that this means that ranks are meaningless, but many others use this datapoint as “proof” far beyond what the data actually indicates.

Given how humans sometimes respond to adversity, I’m not actually that surprised.

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73

That actually makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. It’s not like there’s some threshold of numbers that gives you gold mmr instead of silver mmr if you’re in bronze. If you are putting up numbers good enough for the system to think you are significantly higher than your current sr, you’re going to be climbing there before that point anyway.

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74

If it’s not questionable, then why is it hidden? That’s all I’m saying.

Don’t give that proprietary nonsense, MMR is not a trade secret that needs to be protected.

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75

So, I know the conspiracy theorists don’t want to recognize this, but any “numbers you put up” doesn’t really change your MMR/SR. When they say it’s a factor, they mean it’s a factor in how much your MMR/SR moves upon a win or loss. So, if you win but do poorly, you’ll gain 22, say, vice 25.

Maybe you already know this or think I’m putting too fine a point on it, but there are some who believe that the system can actually measure your performance in an absolute manner and places you in a corresponding MMR. It’s a common misperception. It can’t possibly do the first, and though it will eventually do the second, it’s a nudge in a direction rather than an evaluation and placement.

And, unless they’ve changed things, you could sit on the sidelines above diamond and if your team wins reap all the same benefits. Diamond+ uses MMR, of course, but does not adjust MMR/SR based on performance at all. (Again, you probably know this, just clarifying.)

It’s just…a number. An expectation of your performance that may or may not be correct and can be broken intentionally (or semi-intentionally).

If there’s a healthy and happy player base that is trying to do their best, that number will be pretty accurate. If you lose people or they’re deliberately sabotaging it, well, it’ll be sabotaged. One great way to sabotage it is to convince people that it’s broken…ironically. If they think they’re in a game meant for them to lose…well, they’re not gonna try too hard, but performing consistently is an assumption of the system.

I gave an explanation HERE, on the forums years ago, when the topic first came out. I think it would be helpful for you to read, because while I agree with your overall assessment, I’m not sure you understand the conspiracy theorists beyond “I’m not as good as I think I am”. Which, to be fair, I also think is the core cause of the complaints, but they’re more complicated than just that and telling them that they’re wrong using incorrect information doesn’t help.

It’s also helpful to recognize that someone’s ActualSkill™ can in fact be higher than their SR/MMR. In fact, it probably does vary from being higher to lower, depending on the time of day and hours played.

A lot of the phenomena people are experiencing are real, just not for the reasons they seem to want to claim. I think it does a disservice to simply dismiss them without giving them the more reasonable alternative along with steps to take.

Not that EVERYONE will take to this treatment, but for all but the most nutty jobbers, giving an explanation why it seems people’s skills are all over the place that isn’t based on a conspiracy theory is going to be very convincing.

MMR/SR = AverageSkill, but AverageSkill =/= CurrentSkill, and CurrentSkill depends on environmental context.

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76

Tell me about another Competitive FPS game that shows their source code

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77

Would an MMR of 0.3202mu, sigma 0.005 be very meaningful to you? It’s “hidden” like the insulation in your house is “hidden”. No one really wants to see it and it’s obvious it’s there from the effects.

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78

MMR is literally manipulation. Not sure how some of you can’t understand that.

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79

Have you tried explaining it in a neutral way, using concepts derived from dev statements and similar systems, using verifiable evidence and sound reasoning?

80

What do you define as “manipulation”?