The problems with this are that it matches smurfs with smurfs with normal players. This means instead of the smurfs blasting through and climbing, 100% of the time 50% of the smurfs in matches stay in the same rank causing more problems. Plus, the others who get stuck with them in matches. A smurf being outsmurfed is always the first to throw…
Without this artificial barrier, smurfs would float out of ranks much faster.
There are two competing definitions of smurf. Do you mean someone who is on an alt account and temporarily under ranked but otherwise actually trying to do well, or do you mean someone who had deliberately thrown they’re account down to a level where they can dominate?
I’m not claiming one is more correct than the other, just that the terms aren’t always clear.
Doesn’t matter. A strictly random SR-based matchmaker would help with both varieties.
If it’s the former, then they will climb out faster by facing less other improperly ranked players.
If it’s the later, then those players are always either in a throwing or win state. By not intentionally matching these players, you won’t add extra losses(100% of all smurf on smurf wins also means 50% of all smurfs lose) and potentially more games as they climb to the point that they start throwing again.
Also, it would eliminate any argument about the system working again them. Wouldn’t a lot of you like that?
This is an oxymoron.
Is it random, or is it based on skill?
Wouldn’t it make much more sense to just ban the player if the system actually knows it’s this type of smurf? The system obviously didn’t know of any smurfs, because awareness of the Smurf means elimination of a Smurf.
Not that they don’t exist. But as far as the system knows, they don’t seem to exist, right?
I meant random matchmaking existing within the brackets of SR as opposed to the current MMR existing within the brackets of SR.
No. You would have to create entire detection systems for smurfs. Way more variables to add than the current system. You would also have to change the rules to make it a violation to play below your level while not banning those who are new to comp or have improved. You’d be surprised how much gameplay improves with a big PC upgrade.
Or you could just remove MMR.
That isn’t and never has been how the system works. You’ve been lied to.
What exactly do you think MMR does such that both is not “a complex detection system for smurfs” but also somehow is “intentionally matching these players”.
If it’s doing it intentionally, aren’t they necessarily detected?
SR is an openly visible system that anyone can see or track. The point gains are pretty static once your MMR has been established for a while.
This is why you don’t see streamers getting 100 point SR gains in bronze while smurfing on a silver border account.
It uses rudimentary metrics to determine that a player is performing better than others in the bracket. That’s kiddy level analytics. What you’re suggesting is they algorithmically figure out a player’s motivation and reasoning for playing the way they do. Wildly more complicated, if not impossible.
I’m trying to not suggest anything other than that very direct quote from the devs that says SR has never been used in matchmaking. And that isn’t my suggestion, that’s Kaplans.
I’m trying to understand here. It sounds like you’re trying to say that it uses rudimentary metrics (a opposed to wins/losses?) to match smurfs, but not non-smurfs together, but it doesn’t actually know that they’re smurfs, because as you say, that would be impossible.
This final point, that accurate Smurf detection is very difficult verging on impossible, we totally agree on. I just can’t square that with the other things you said regarding putting smurfs together intentionally. I really have no idea what you mean.
I’ll try to clarify, but I’m not sure if you’re just being intentionally obtuse or what…
It’s easy to tell a player is performing better relative to their SR rank.
What isn’t easy to tell is why.
If I go from a sub 60fps setup to a 144fps setup, I’m, in all likelihood, probably going play better and be detected as a ‘smurf’.
Should I be punished in the same manner that you suggest as someone who rank tanked or bought a bronze account to smurf?
How would you know if someone hasn’t been practicing or getting coaching or whatever people do to improve?
There’s a myriad of acceptable reasons to be better than the other players in your lobby. Using the current(or really any) MMR system, you’re not going to discern these things in an accurate way.
Not intentionally. The rest of what you said, I get and agree with. I don’t understand what you mean when you say these following quotes, especially since we seem to be on the same page regarding the fact that the system cannot tell if a Smurf-like player is truly a Smurf.
which has a typo, but seems to be implying that it, the matchmaker, intentionally matches smurfs in a pattern, though due to typo i can’t quite tell if you mean it intentionally matches smurfs with other smurfs or with normal players, but either way it seems to assume that the smurf is known about.
combined with this:
You seem to be saying, and here its even stronger, that the game intentionally matches Smurfs, which to me means that a Smurf is recognized by the system.
I’m almost certainly misunderstanding you, in those two quotes. You clearly recognize that the system cannot tell smurfs apart from normal players.
There is a thing that not many players know:
SR goes from 1 - 5000
MMR goes from around ≈-3 to ≈+3.
But yeah you get more SR if your predicted win percentage is lower, same for the opposite.
MMR it’s not an exciting number and it may not even change after game. The reason why SR exists is to make players feel like they achieved something. Imagine playing a game, winning and seeing that your MMR didn’t change. You feel unrewarded. That’s why they don’t even show your MMR and why all rewards and the leaderboard are based on your SR.
I took some inspiration from one of Tomi-22443’s Posts. They explained the part about SR being just a reward really great!
But that’s not a good thing. Why are we as players okay with being deceived?
Boy, you’re pedantic, but I guess here we go in a circle again…
Before I explain this, let me define ‘smurf’ in a way I think we both agree with.
smurf - player who intentionally plays below their given rank in order to gain large advantages over the opposing team.
Let’s talk about what the current MMR system catches.
The MMR system catches players who are perform above their rank - regardless of the reason or intent
Without the intent to play below your level or the intent to gain an advantage, there is no smurfing. The algorithm does not detect intent.
If your problem is outside of previously defined ‘smurfing’, then it would be with match making.
I mean, this is the third time you’ve repeated something back to me that I already said we agree on. MMR can’t detect smurfs, we agree. I’ve seen to much “talking past each other” here. I hope your can forgive me for trying to ensure that i understand you correctly.
I don’t know what you mean with the other stuff, but you don’t seem to want to defend your claim that
so i guess you just don’t believe that and you misspoke.
Who’s being deceived? I’m not. They’ve explained it over and over. Proxies have explained and expounded, even doing research. All modern games are like this. The upsides are obvious.
What’s the problem?
That’s actually a good question. I think most of the players are okay with it as long as they see a change and get their rewards. I personally think it’s a good way to handle things. Because I’m sure many competitive players would not play the game if there was no rewarding side of it. This would have an even worse impact on the game.
It’s a human thing. Players would get frustrated if they would see the “truth” and how they didn’t improve (as far as seen from the systems view). Speaking about the system or also the player’s view… How do we even define skill? What makes out a good player? Was my decision wrong? Should I have done something else? Was me obviously going in and feed actually bad for the match or did it actually have subconscious influence on the enemy team, which causes them to play in a certain way that causes us to win at the end? There are so many factors that we can’t really measure. This kinda gives me quantum mechanics vibes.
You are not being deceived. SR dictates which rank you achieved. Not MMR.
If you would have visible MMR instead of SR, that would be decieving actualy as you could win game and didnt move up at all. In fact you could even drop lower. How would that feel?
I mean, it would in fact be the more accurate representation. Not, like, “rail on the internets all day” level of effective change, but SR is used specifically because it doesn’t give you your actual rank but rather the “adjusted” rank after player based considerations are taken into account.
They could get rid of SR without issue, really. You lose some things and gain nothing other than making Hulk find something else to complain about, but it’s not strictly necessary.
It’s also not problematic, or rather, I’ve yet to hear a good case why having an easily digestible number that can drop to punish leavers poses some sort of moral issue. To me it’s about as harmful as painting a wall, it’s pretty and it provides a bit of protection, but it’s not going to stop a bull running through it.
It’s a moot point soon though, isn’t it? They’re implementing MY preferred system, woot woot!
If you would have visible MMR… That would be great!
More transparency for the player is better in my opinion.
Why is more information better?
More information is better because we can make decisions based on that information and see for ourselves if things are working as we expect them to.
Should we also hide the framerate counter? Should we hide stats like ping? Because some players would “feel” better if it showed 144FPS, 1MS despite that not being the case?
If the answer is no, then why should we hide MMR?
If the system creates a match on which it learns nothing from a win - and as a result your MMR doesn’t go up - I’d rather have that information available to me.
The failings of the backend system shouldn’t be hidden from the player.
At the very least MMR should be visible to the player themselves even if not publicly visible.
Its not exactly more informations, its just different number which wont tell you much. You have miriad of information on your profile and who actualy study that?
No you cant. You would see any possible change in MMR after match,not during the match so how can you make any decisions based on that? Your only goal is to win match. Watching MMR will not help you anyhow.
Dont be silly, these things are actualy important for you and hardly comparable to MMR.
Because it would only confuse players.
You have to understand that playing for better stats to raise MMR doesnt mean you play the right way.