Agreed, that’s why i’m also showing the win rates. Reinhard and Zarya weren’t just picked for being fun. They’re winning games over the other tanks. And as i’ve said previously, if they were picked for being fun, then they would have continued dominating the other tanks even last year.
https://i.imgur.com/ugilR01.jpg
It is an estimation of the entire playerbase. Almost all of them fall within what is likely the margin of error for Overbuff’s win rate estimation (because no matter how you spin it they do not have ALL the data so they are estimating based on the data they do and building a representative sample and a couple times actual win rates have been commented on they have shown what we will charitably call discrepancies between the data).
Basically this is the problem with win rate as a number especially when we do not have all the data. The difference between meta and non meta is small for most of the game that it would be cancelled out by performance SR and not even really noticed over the course of a season.
Lower ranks are better at Rein/Zarya (well less bad at it) because of the. many, thing that is a struggle is engaging properly and Rein/Zarya naturally pushes forward. It naturally does the thing that low ranked tanks struggle with (doesnt solve the terrible positioning but one problem at a time).
and throwing winrates in there doesn’t add all that much. Plus the winrates you showed are pretty healthy overall.
Highest one is Orisa there, but winrates really become problematic around 54-55.
also
There is also a layer of team expectation, it’s why metas take a bit to change. If plat convinces itself that it’s “rein or lose” then it sorts of become because bad players will demand rein and throw if he’s not picked to to “assumed” importance.
It happens with rein a lot cause he’s the only tank most healer and dps one tricks know how to deal with
True, but the error margin isn’t so large that the difference would be a complete 180 of what might be on the server.
Reinhardt going from a 21% pickrate to 32%, Zarya going from 14% to 21%, and Orisa going from 18% to 6% is not a margin of error.
And then the performance stats are consistent across several months, that’s not something you can toss away as an anomaly.
The pick rates are not within the margin of error but the win rates are. Clearly Rein/Zarya is picked more on ladder but as to whether it is better remains up in the air. As for the consistency you are polling the same group of people (public profiles). As in literally the exact same people. Rasmussen does something similar with their polling metric and it is why their polls are notoriously unreliable.
The pick rate is probably accurate but that does not mean they are picking in their best interest. As someone who uses those ranks to learn new heroes (and I spent a little while down there when I was a new player), I can routine tell you that people down there do not make optimal decisions in any form or fashion. Not in heroes, not in ability usage, not in positioning. Literally is no way shape or form are they being optimal. When you are not being optimal how can you balance around that? How can you balance around people picking the wrong heroes?
but again, you are trying to derive meaning from extremely limited data lacking context. Pickrates placed against winrate are vague enough that you can pretty much see in them what you want to see.
Discussing them is meaningless
You are literally asking for balance based around perfect plays and perfect team comps, which are not present in the games of 96% of the playerbase.
This is not OWL.
Those 96% have other options (also the other 4% is not OWL either its randoms on ladder). They HAVE things they can do. They are choosing not to do them or are not good enough yet to do them. The other 4% have no such options. They either play the meta or they fall into the Masters trap.
A Diamond Rein, was a Diamond Rein last month, 6 months ago, and a year ago. A GM Rein was probably a GM Rein 6 months ago, and either he was Sigma 9 months ago or he was a Masters Rein. That is the difference between the leagues.
If I see a Pharah (or Echo) in Plat, I can go Soldier, McCree,Widow, Ashe (and if I am support probably Ana or Bap tbh) and solve the problem. There is no right or wrong choice, there is just either making the choice or not. There is a right answer as you go higher. As you go higher the answer is pick McCree or Ashe or lose the game. The options narrow and so to does the ability to fix it without being a meta slave.
Yeah because they totally didn’t nerf the hell out of reaper because he dominated low ranks.
Which people under Masters don’t follow.
You’re balancing on the assumption that there will be two shields. Something the 96% would rather avoid. And in doing so, you end up cratering the alternatives to Reinhardt.
During goats, we didn’t abuse the tanks, the popular comp on ladder was actually 2-2-2. Tanks were actually even more playable all around. But because the top 1% abused them and went 3 tanks right off the bat (something that practically never happened on ladder) ended up getting the tanks and their supports nerfed, the tank role below masters collapsed leaving just Orisa standing.
The tank combo options are gone. Orisa’s paper shield meant she can’t be a solo shield tank. Same with Sigma who’s now being paired with Rein. To get an offtank to work without ending up feeding ult. You needed the shield tank to be strong enough to protect the team, including the off tank. Now you needed two shields.
People aren’t picking the other tanks because they’re less fun. They’re not being picked because they die. And your suggestion to go with “optimal comp” just means to never pick any of the other tanks at all. Rather than make the other tanks viable, you just want your problem tanks nerfed.
^ this.
Its insane how people cannot comprehend this, and wonder why their DPS que goes up day by day even tho the game is in the best place its ever been in their opinion.
The current experimental card is pretty much a death sentence.
I am going to tell you a secret: the other 4% also do not want to have double shields either, it just exists because it is the optimal pick.
You can play Rein Zarya. You can play Winston Zarya. There is even the Ball Zarya meme comp that somehow wins. Orisa Hog would be a thing if Sigma were not still busted. DVA needs some buffs to not just be a worse Sigma and it is hard to tell where Sigma would go because right now he is so busted he can go with anything.
And why it is the optimal pick?
Because of the insane damage and the crippled state of the rest of the tanks.
And instead adressing that fact, everyone seems to be adamant on destroying everything that still resemble a tank and support.
I said this in another thread.
Tanks are functioning right now from scraps that the devs didnt taken yet. Even if they go through all of this experimental massacre,double shield will still be the meta, because nothing else has a chance.
Thats true , its like they announce buffs & nerfs like Goats etc of which i have never seen they been played in my matchs before for the past 4 years
Tanks right now are the only role that truly has experienced power creep over this games lifetime. Most of the increase in damage has come from the increase in damage that tanks have dealt relative to the start of the game. The only reason barriers break faster is because tanks are breaking them faster. However, barriers still last long enough to do what they need to do and that is get the team to the fight.
A barrier should not be the defining point of the fight. It is merely a tool through which you reach the point where the fight happens. The fight should not center around the barrier, but the barrier should be the tool through which you maximize your position for the fight itself.
I find it so weird that right now so many supports pick 2 of Ana/Bap/Zen then compain they are getting dived by Genji and the Reinhardt (of all people!) should protect them. Just swap one of the supports (definitely the Zen if there is one) for a Bap and he’ll struggle to make much impact.
I discussed this issue at length if anyone wants a longer approach on why this is a bad idea:
Developers like Riot Games state that they balance towards each level equally. I feel this is healthier for games than only pandering towards the “money” of OWL and streamers. If you make a good game, people will be more interested in streaming. People don’t stream because the stream itself is cool, they stream because they love the game.
What? I dont think you really believe what you just said.
Tanks are breaking each others barriers faster?? xDDD you cannot make this up.
Im sure the Reins are staring each others barriers to death, and the D.va damage is horrifying.
Wanna know what is the real issue?
When Echo, a flying tankbuster with a laser that literally deletes everything under 50% HP, almost instant sticky bomb burst damage, and an ult that can copy every single hero but being on steroids, gets released and it cannot compete against other DPS.
Let me just give a few heroes that really are problematic:
McCree,Hanzo,Tracer,Genji and there are many more
Hanzo’s rework basicly got rid of his weakness and gave him a tank buster ability that he did not need.
Tracer, range increase.
McCree, (aka McMachinegun), im not sure i can even list all the things that he got buffed with. His ult is basicly unrecognizeable to what it was before, he got his range increase, his damage cap lifted,now he can spin like a beyblade during ult.
Oh but that sigma primary is melting tanks too fast 
/s
Often I wished they made it so that only 1 barrier tank is allowed. The very short time of 2-2-2 before Sigma came was so fun 
.
I don’t want to have paper shields and be dependent on another barrier tank to play Orisa.
Overall the Problem is OWL, these Teams there will “abuse” every meta/synergie that is possible good, high ranks copy that and play it aswell if its not that heavy teamrelevant as OWL plays. Thats kinda it. There Should be some rules on OWL that is better for picking. Maybe let Crowds/Poll decide what should be played as mirror ?=