We are the 99%!

That is still a mentality problem.

And double shield is still a win condition because of the damage creep.

And the 99% dont want heroes to be virtually unchecked. Every hero needs a counter that can take a “brown thing” on it. This is another example of where Seaglul was again wrong long ago.

Dont know if you are aware, but the “meta” in the real game is entirely different than what you experience in high ranks. Brig is borderline unplayable for the 99% and a must pick for you. You would see a lot more Mercy than any burst heal. Also,the aoe healing can be overwhelming at times yea,that is entirely on blizzard. Mercy-s ult should never be the way it is,Baptiste shouldnt have that shift aoe heal for starters. But the thing is you cannot just reduce healing without doing anything with damage.

I dont remember when was the last time i actually got grabbed by an orisa grav. I killed countless of orisas under Fortify. Orisa ult= contributing to damage creep.

You still dont think of Sigma as hero where he is alone as a shield tank. Without a second shield he is garbo. A D.va wont be able to protect him. Also he has very limited range on primary,abuse that.

Aoe burst is entirely on blizzard i said it above,but you cannot nerf that without touching damage.

What would you rather do? bait out the 4 seconds every now and then or stare at 40min que time because tanks are not willing to play in DPS paradise?

DM range is barely needed, armor yea,do it. Also D.va had 4 sec DM before if i remember right. It wasnt broken,just abused into oblivion in GM and above. She had decent pickrate in anywhere else.
Side note (adding her rockets was a mistake)

5 Likes

The one problem I have with people saying GM and OWL is that they are not the same.
Recently the last ban found 50 of the top 500 dps players to be cheaters.
I do not want these people deciding on the game balance, NOT AT ALL.

OWL players are vetted, at least I would hope so, and I have no problem balancing around them.

GM?? F no.
Blizzard has proven they can’t find cheaters if their business depended on it, and I don’t want these people making any changes.

I don’t want anyone not vetted by Blizzard as a REAL player to have input on game direction.

We’re impacted by them at lower levels as well.

This was during double shield meta near the end of last year.

h.t.t.p.s://i.imgur.com/ugilR01.jpg

While the GM’s we’re dealing with doubleshield. The top two tanks for the rest of ladder were Reinhardt and Orisa. Sigma was just another off tank. Since Reinhardt and Orisa had no synergy, they ended up pulling up the off tanks as well.

You didn’t have mirror matches since you can just run any tank combo against any tank combo.

We didn’t have a meta.

This is now

h.t.t.p.s://i.imgur.com/q7knFsh.jpg

You either picked Reinhard/Zarya or you were throwing.

Because they nerfed Orisa for the sake of the 1%, the rest of ladder got meta locked into just two tanks from January until now.

Orisa isn’t the problem, she’s not even in the game enough to claim that she’s the one holding back the other tanks. Yet rather than make the other tanks viable, they just nerfed her.

That is not even what your own chart shows. Ignoring the fact that at low SRs you can pick literally anything and as long as you play the basics of your comp right you will win, your own chart does not show Rein/Zarya or throwing. Your chart shows that, with the small exception of DVA and Winston, that you could literally pick any tank and your win rate is not really affected in any meaningful way. THAT is what your chart shows.

I think it’s good to balance around the top% because that’s where the maximum potential is to be seen and certain things that would be okay in lower ranks might end up gamebreaking in higher ranks. However, the way of the balancing, that’s another thing because there are many variables to look at, which is also what makes it so hard for the developers.

You can balance numbers on a sheet for HP, damage, fire rate, ability cooldown, etc. but you can’t balance player skill.

If you nerf or buff primary fire damage, the impact will be higher where the general accuracy is higher. If you make spread or lock on range bigger, it will likely have little impact in high ranks while being more impactful in lower ranks, while if you decrease spread, the hero will be stronger in more mechanically gifted hands than in others.

If you touch abilities they are a bit less mechanically reliant usually, but for example Echos alternativ fire is way stronger in lower ranks where players often stand still and are easy targets while Echo as a flying hero is also harder to kill for them. Meanwhile in higher ranks Echo is a throw pick more or less in most situations. If you increase the cooldown on a defensive ability like wraith form this will have less impact in higher ranks, as players are more decisive and fights happen more calculated while in low ranks it’s a get out of jail card, so players with less game sense and worse positioning will generally suffer more from this change.

Then take HP, no mechanical skill involved with that right? But then think about the other skillsets in Overwatch, like positioning and awareness. A nerf to HP will be more noticeable in ranks where players are out of position more often, dying faster in situations where they might have been lucky before. On top of that, less HP opens a hero up to new interactions, like for example if you bring them from 250 to 200 HP they can be oneshot by Ashe, Doomfist, Genji blade, etc. which wouldn’t happen before.

Which brings up the next point, a lot of abilities and heroes are balanced around interactions with abilities like damage boosts, meaning the hero itself isn’t allowed to have higher numbers because it would break a threshhold with damage boosts, that would make it overpowered.

Heroes are also balanced around team play components, which are likely less to be found in lower ranks. Taking defenses from a tank makes them more reliant on supports and a coordinated engage. Anas nade is one of these examples too, where in higher ranks the anti heal is super strong while in lower ranks, Ana players usually mainly use the nade as a self healing tool as the other support might not heal them as much or they just take more damage from the way they position.

Now taking all of this into consideration, there is also the fun layer. What can you nerf or change without the hero feeling clunky or removing / adding new combos to the game. Higher cooldowns will make the hero less fluent to play, less combos take away excitement of completing it, etc.

That is the problem I think - Overwatch has too many variables that impact the balancing decisions.
Games like CS:Go or Modern Warfare are more reliant on spread, damage falloff, damage numbers, etc. when it comes to balancing, with everyone being on a more or less even ground. It’s more aiming focus than ability focussed, making balancing easier as you have less to worry about.
Then you have games like League of Legends that are more ability focussed while aim plays a lesser role, where you have to worry less about players mechanical skill when making balancing choices.

Now in Overwatch, you have heroes that require balancing in the style of FPS games while other heroes require balancing in the style of MOBAs while some require both and at the same time you can never just look at the hero alone but have to look at all the different interactions between them too… making it super hard to make balancing changes that won’t affect the game in an unfun way in some form at one end of the spectrum.

1 Like

Again, that was last year when the top ranks were complaining about doubleshield meta. The rest of ladder were actually just fine.

But you apparently didn’t look at the second pic because that’s the state of the game RIGHT NOW.

h.t.t.p.s://i.imgur.com/q7knFsh.jpg

Since January, you either picked Reinhardt or Zarya or you were throwing. Despite your claim that meta only matters in the top ranks, the fact is, the changes you make in the top tiers put the rest of us in a meta prison.

1 Like

How hard is it to do this?

https://i.imgur.com/q7knFsh.jpg

How’d you do that?

Highlight the link and hit the button that looks like this “</>” in the blue bar over the reply box.

Please pass it on to others who make life harder for everyone :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

https://i.imgur.com/q7knFsh.jpg

/facepalm

Thanks

2 Likes

So Rein/Zarya or you may lose 2-3% more of your games. A number so inconsequential that I am pretty sure performance based SR can EASILY overcome it. To put it another way, it would take at least 33 games on average for me to have 1 that would have changed in result. That is the degree of imbalance being discussed. The needle barely moved. You can still pick anything and if you master the basics you will climb.

I recommend Zarya and Sigma to newer players because I think mastering the basics with them allows you the easiest transition to other tanks (plus Zarya just is so good once you master the basics of helping fix the people who have not and you will win).

reading this topic makes me glad they don’t balance according to the whims of the forum

3 Likes

this doesn’t mean you are throwing if you aren’t playing Rein/Zarya…
most people at lower ranks want to play Rein/Zarya because it’s fun

The ONLY time i feel like the tank picks are throwing is when there are two off tanks
like ball/hog and DVA/hog… that is it.

But at Masters+ if you don’t pick SIGMA/ORISA you are throwing because so much is decided on the tank play.

Also Pro players have to play this game EVERY DAY for 10+ hours… and to be stuck in a meta for months playing the same thing must suck! so yeah i think the game should be balanced at the highest level.

for us… it doesn’t matter! we can HOG/DVA,TORB/SYM,LUCIO/ZEN and still win.

I mean dude: the COMPETITIVE part of this game is about improving and competing with other players. The fun of competitive is about wheter you can be better than the enemy team or not (and not about enjoying the cool looking abilities).

If you would get good too and would climb (how competitive was meant to be) then slowly you would also realize why are the meta heroes meta on the higher levels of play and you would understand why those heroes need a Nerf or a buff.

It’s not that Blizzard hates those heroes personally, no… It’s about that if someone wants to climb and win matches in a competitive enviroment on the higher levels of play then those heroes get much more value than other heroes.

The reason why Blizzard should balance this game around the highest levels of play is cuz

  • Below 3500 SR anything can be meta. You can literally make any hero work well which says something…
  • If you are constantly playing competitive than i Guess you are playing with the intention to climb. And if you do that then it’s best to balance the game around when you got good and have a better understanding of the game rather than when you couldn’t even deal with 1 Reaper.

For the entire playerbase? That’s a lot!

And it’s certainly consequential enough that offtanks who are supposed to be popular had their pick rates dropped into the single digits while Rein/Zar soared above everyone else.

The problem tho is that it isn’t slow, you can only see the changes as you go up to Diamond. Once you get to masters, it has no resemblance to the rest of ladder.

Except the population size is vastly different from rank to rank

Most players are in Gold, lets throw a random number like 100,000 players
There are WAY fewer in GM, lets throw out 100

Winning ONE game in Gold, isn’t going to make a huge difference to the winrate of a hero, because the size of the playerbase is so large

Winning one game in GM however, is going to offer a MUCH larger swing in terms of performance

That’s why the average player needs a 51% winrate in order to maintain rank/ climb and the GM players need 54% or higher

The vast difference in the player count makes smaller differences in numbers much larger in lower tiers than in higher ones.

In a single day, Bastion’s winrate can spike upwards of 80% in GM because of how few players there are, and how little Bastion is actually used. Within the last week, there are days where Bastion has literally been used so little, that its Winrate for the day drops down to 0%, and then spikes up to 61% the next

That is IMPOSSIBLE in lower tier play simply because of the much larger population

2 Likes

It’s not just about fun. If that really was the case, then you’d still have had Rein/Zar dominating during Doubleshield as well. Instead you had other tanks getting decent picks.

As it is right now, they’re even winning far more games than any other tank.

sigh
you cannot talk about meta and hero state just by looking at pickrates.
All that your pic shows is that Rein is popular on ladder, not that he’s a must pick. You need to have the meta knowledge to interpret the data, otherwise it’s like stopping at the first line of a text.

Rein is popular since he’s been in the game since the start and is seen as the “quintessential tank” by the fanbase at large. He’s also the tank that’s the easiest to pick up for new players while also having enough depth to remain engaging into high tiers.
He also has the benefit of being viable in specific comps in high tiers, so when they don’t play double barrier (which is not just having two shields) he gets played instead.

Same with ana at high ranks, she’s a popular character that’s viable, yet the meta is bap/brig.

There is also a layer of team expectation, it’s why metas take a bit to be effective. If plat convinces itself that it’s “rein or lose” then it sorts of become because bad players will demand rein and throw if he’s not picked to to “assumed” importance.
It happens with rein a lot cause he’s the only tank most healer and dps one tricks know how to deal with

tl;dr: pickrates are a HORRIBLE stat to learn about meta state, especially if one doesn’t have enough knowledge about the game

Rein/ Zarya are the only ranks with viable Rank maintaining/ climbing winrates to pickrates for the vast majority of players