Role Que as healer is SO BAD

[MrSandvich-21925]

@Hyphen-21921

Here is an intensive list of all the “issues” that RQ solves:
“Well … at least we dont have 4-5 DPS”

It’s true. Unbalanced comps are no longer possible in RQ. Neither is pseudo - Flexing, AKA people swapping from Tank/Support to DPS and handicapping their entire team as a result. Also, in RQ it isn’t a race of who has the better hardware in terms of who can pay the role they want. You can choose what role you want to paly beforehand.

Here you go, 3 issues RQ has solved.

@Hyphen-21921

Destroy Queue times for anything that is not Tank

I don’t have high queues as Support. Many others don’t either.

@Hyphen-21921

Encourages lack of versatility and OTP

Nope. Millions of different compositions are still possible in RQ. The system itself on the other hand doesn’t in any way encourage one - tricking, while the “death” of traditional Flexing RQ has brought upon both has its negatives and positives.

@Hyphen-21921

Matches are more uneven than ever, 3-4 different ranks on the same team

Not RQ’s problem and not exclusive to it. The matchmaker has been a mess since long before RQ was even a thing.

@Hyphen-21921

You could “pay the price” with your time and play forced 222 using the LFG and leave the rest of the players alone but no, apparently it all had to be in 1 button so here we are.

Imagine still using the broking mess that still is the LFG system as an argument against RQ… Needless to say, people being too lazy to use LFG wasn’t its main issue, at least not more of an issue than current RQ haters being too lazy to click on OQ…

LFG was and still is broken, because it is a grouping - up system and is therefore subject to all the many issues of grouping up in Overwatch, such as but not limited to the horrid balance when groups of different sizes are matched to get her and/or put against each other.

@Hyphen-21921

Facts are 3-4 problems are worse than 1 problem. So yeah, objectively worse.

That stuff above were the “objective issues” with RQ? Yeah… I think you have to reconsider your stance, if not the entire gist of supposed “objectivity”…

[Heinstar-6822]

Oh this is about QP? That’s what this whole post was about? Than I have to disagree because I actually don’t think QP is that bad for supports personally. If anything, I actually get the most balanced, challenging (but in a fair way) and fun games in QP than ranked.

You do occasionally get bad games as support where the enemy has a smurf widow and you nor your team can’t do anything about it because of team diff, but those are the kind of games where it’s better for you to just leave.

I used to leave games when there were smurf tracer on the enemy team, but my aim has gotten better to the point where I can mostly keep the smurf tracer away from me. So even though it’s a 100% loss when there’s smurf tracer on enemy team, I’m actually still able to participate and have fun in the game so I usually stay until the end.

Tank actually feels garbage to play both in QP and ranked but that might be due to me not finding the role fun. I wish I would find it fun so that I can play something other than support, but it’s just not for me sadly.

[Megadodo-11847]

@MrSandvich-21925

I guess it’s a great thing OQ exists for people like you then.

it is imo certainly far better than the alternative - ie playing 222 mode matches - but because there are many differences between the 222 mode and role-less queue mode aside from the necessary queuing differences, the one really isnt a direct substitute for the other

@MrSandvich-21925

LFG was and still is broken

LFG is not nor has it ever been broken, actually

It works perfectly

@MrSandvich-21925

Unbalanced comps are no longer possible in RQ.

I hear this stated often as an argument in favor of 222, but I never understand how this favors 222

The word “balanced” conveys positivity in a very general sense, but the game of Overwatch does not require balance in the sense that 222 forces on the players. Said another way, there is no evidence I know of that proves that 222 is the best available arrangement, and indeed, I have seen 222 teams beaten easily by so-called “unbalanced” teams, including but not limited to 6 dps teams

as such, I dont see the claim of “balanced” as relevant to the discussion of whether 222 is a good thing or not.

[HULK-23345]

@Megadodo-11847

@MrSandvich-21925

I guess it’s a great thing OQ exists for people like you then.

it is imo certainly far better than the alternative - ie playing 222 mode matches - but because there are many differences between the 222 mode and role-less queue mode aside from the necessary queuing differences, the one really isnt a direct substitute for the other

@MrSandvich-21925

LFG was and still is broken

LFG is not nor has it ever been broken, actually

It works perfectly

@MrSandvich-21925

Unbalanced comps are no longer possible in RQ.

I hear this stated often as an argument in favor of 222, but I never understand how this favors 222

The word “balanced” conveys positivity in a very general sense, but the game of Overwatch does not require balance in the sense that 222 forces on the players. Said another way, there is no evidence I know of that proves that 222 is the best available arrangement, and indeed, I have seen 222 teams beaten easily by so-called “unbalanced” teams, including but not limited to 6 dps teams

as such, I dont see the claim of “balanced” as relevant to the discussion of whether 222 is a good thing or not

My thoughts exactly…

[Hyphen-21921]

@MrSandvich-21925

It’s true. Unbalanced comps are no longer possible in RQ. Neither is pseudo - Flexing, AKA people swapping from Tank/Support to DPS and handicapping their entire team as a result. Also, in RQ it isn’t a race of who has the better hardware in terms of who can pay the role they want. You can choose what role you want to paly beforehand.

Here you go, 3 issues RQ has solved.

Making up issues doesnt count mate.

1 - If you think 222 is the only balanced comp, you could only be more wrong saying 2+2 equals 5
2 - It eliminated all flexing, so pseudo and true flexing so 1 - 1 its zero. Null gain, null point.
3 - Hardware has never been an issue in playing a role, not in this universe at least and reducing the potential number of players that can take “your hero” is not an “issue”.

There you go, debunked.

@MrSandvich-21925

I don’t have high queues as Support. Many others don’t either.

Pointless, many do and they are objectively higher than OQ before RQ existed so yeah, refuted.

@MrSandvich-21925

Nope. Millions of different compositions are still possible in RQ. The system itself on the other hand doesn’t in any way encourage one - tricking, while the “death” of traditional Flexing RQ has brought upon both has its negatives and positives.

100% false. You need to learn some maths if you actually believe the number of permutations is remotely even close between OQ and RQ. Again the “flexing” thing, is 1-1 , null point (thats why I didnt bring killing true flex players as an objective issue).
The fact that you dont need to play ANYTHING besides X role its literally enabling and encouraging OTPs. Specially because theres only 1 other person that can potentially take “their hero”.

@MrSandvich-21925

Not RQ’s problem and not exclusive to it. The matchmaker has been a mess since long before RQ was even a thing.

False again.
Before RQ there was only 1 role, so even the uneven matches were not even as bad as RQ ones with 3-4 different ranks in the same match. Dont use “selective memory” because many of us played since 2016 and my claim is 100% correct.

@MrSandvich-21925

Imagine still using the broking mess that still is the LFG system as an argument against RQ

Imagine still using made up claims debunked by DEVS against LFG. Theres nothing broken about LFG, just the fact that people is lazy and dont have the patience to make groups.

@MrSandvich-21925

the horrid balance when groups of different sizes are matched to get her and/or put against each other.

You are complaining about the MM, not LFG. Learn the diference.
Groups are groups, come from LFG, from friends list, or from random dudes that decided to stay together. They should not be special or “different” so LFG groups are magically allowed to stomp solo queuers.

Again, thats not how it works buddy.

@MrSandvich-21925

That stuff above were the “objective issues” with RQ? Yeah… I think you have to reconsider your stance, if not the entire gist of supposed “objectivity”…

Oh the I R O N Y of you trying to call out my objectivity when you literally made up issues just to try to “refute” my statements … yeah good luck with that.

[Feculator-2245]

@Hyphen-21921

Facts are 3-4 problems are worse than 1 problem

3-4 tiny problems are not worse than one big one. My last three posts are all about trying to make you consider that those 3-4 problems aren’t as big as you think.

I could apply your logic to anything.
Insulin:
Cons:

• costs money
• requires pharmaceutical infrastructure to produce
• need to spend time getting it
• the shot hurts a bit

The single good thing about it?

• It saves your life

As you can see, there’s four times as many cons than pros, so we can conclude the fact that insulin is objectively bad.

@Hyphen-21921

Hardware has never been an issue in playing a role,

Pretty sure that loading in quicker improved your odds of a guilt-free DPS instalock. (Although for a bunch of people even that wasn’t guilt-free.)

@Hyphen-21921

Theres nothing broken about LFG, just the fact that people is lazy and dont have the patience to make groups.

I find myself having the patience to queue as DPS, even though it probably takes longer than making a group did. Which reminds me of another advantage RQ has over it: I like playing with randoms. Much less pressure than in an LFG premade.

[Hyphen-21921]

@Feculator-2245

3-4 tiny problems are not worse than one big one. My last three posts are all about trying to make you consider that those 3-4 problems aren’t as big as you think.

I can give you 400 scenarios too, reality still hits hard:
You can literally solve your issue with LFG, the other ones cant be solved.

I can’t make my enemies not have 800 SR up or down compared to mine and the quality of the matches is way way way way more important than forcing 222. Forcing 222 does NOT bring fairness (SR wise) and quality, it just locks people in certain roles.

If you actually think not having 3-5 DPS in your team is remotely comparable to someone dying or getting severe physical harm from a chronic dissease, this ends here

@Feculator-2245

Pretty sure that loading in quicker improved your odds of a guilt-free DPS instalock. (Although for a bunch of people even that wasn’t guilt-free.)

It didnt and no, no hardware prevents you from choosing X heroes.
The whole “insta lock” thing means nothing. No one can force you to NOT pick the hero you want besides someone picking it before you (which can still happen in RQ).

The only mode that forces you to not being able to play anything besides X role is RQ. RQ is empirically more restrictive than “hardware limitations” here.

@Feculator-2245

I find myself having the patience to queue as DPS, even though it probably takes longer than making a group did. Which reminds me of another advantage RQ has over it: I like playing with randoms. Much less pressure than in an LFG premade.

And you could do it.
Thats the difference. You could CHOOSE to do that or create a group.
Now we dont have a choice with RQ : Its either ALL restricted or ALL open.

And if you bring up “You can use LFG to choose your comp” you are basically making me win the argument straight up so yeah, you refuted nothing.

[Feculator-2245]

@Hyphen-21921

If you actually think not having 3-5 DPS in your team is remotely comparable to someone dying or getting severe physical harm from a chronic dissease, this ends here

You would not believe how tiresome it gets to talk with people who don’t understand the most basic conversational devices, such as a simple, sarcastic exaggeration to make a point. They should have got you to play that guy Drax the Destroyer, the one who takes everything literally. Anyway,

@Hyphen-21921

The whole “insta lock” thing means nothing. No one can force you to NOT pick the hero you want

Except, you know, decency, and desire to be a team player. But the picture is getting clearer now. I can see why someone who thinks like this would subjectively prefer the pre-RQ days.

@Hyphen-21921

reality still hits hard:

I can only repeat myself: here’s the reality of a majority of people preferring RQ, even though LFG and open queue were available. And this is when competitive open-queue was the new hype thing, btw. This was a subjective choice by all those people, but there were more of them (except in South Korea). Whatever problems RQ has, most people seem willing to put up with them in exchange for the benefits.

[HULK-23345]

@Feculator-2245

Except, you know, decency, and desire to be a team player.

One might argue that playing the hero that you wish to play is actually beneficial because you would probably play it better. Furthermore one plays a game for entertainment and it seems unreasonable to expect that someone would play something that they don’t wish to play. As such I would not see any reason to feel guilty about instantly selecting a particular Hero.

[Celsius-12710]

okay first…
just to argue semantics a bit, it doesn’t really detract from your argument that much but… theres like three roles. so either youre going to be the most, the second most, or the least. “one of the most” is not a thing when there are 3 main roles in the game (and i assume we arent going to subcategories because “support” covers both main and flex)

second…
(as a tank main) supports are definitely the second most privileged role. tanks might get the short end of the stick, but it’s clear how DPS are far and away the most privileged role. until something that literally the changes the way the entire game is played and most negatively impacts the two other roles is put into the game, all in the name of lower queue times? DPS will always be the most privileged role. DPS mains can argue how they’re the least valuable, but like no sh*t. Tanks and Supports can still deal damage but they’re the ones keeping you alive so without them you won’t have much impact, that’s how a team game works.

But yeah other than that I agree, Tanks have certainly gotten the short end of the stick so many times and it’s basically all been “Is Sigma bad? Nerf whoever is better” or “Let’s make the game 5v5 and force tanks to relearn their characters”. It sucks, but Tanks are the minority by a lot, so Blizz doesn’t really care about making our game experience less fun if it appeases those in the majority.

[Hyphen-21921]

@Feculator-2245

You would not believe how tiresome it gets to talk with people who don’t understand the most basic conversational devices, such as a simple, sarcastic exaggeration to make a point. They should have got you to play that guy Drax the Destroyer, the one who takes everything literally.

Talking about “literally” here pal. I literally started my sentence with :
I can give you 400 scenarios too

Your scenarios, analogies, metaphors, anything you can come up with to make it seem that having 4-5 DPS at a point in time during a match is such a big issue compared to the quality of the match and the queue times mean nothing.

Is it clear now? You are in the wrong here. Empirically, logically and realistically speaking:
Bad Quality SR wise + Bad Queue times >>>>>>>> Not having 4-5 DPS at some point

That is how reality works. Sorry your personal experience is different but thats the world we live in. You can accept it or not but thats the way it is

@Feculator-2245

Except, you know, decency, and desire to be a team player. But the picture is getting clearer now. I can see why someone who thinks like this would subjectively prefer the pre-RQ days.

Are we arguing “feelings” now? Because that has nothing to do with real issues Forced 222 and RQ are bringing, which again, for the hundred gazillion time, are objectively more than the “issues” it solves.

This line of argument has nothing to do with Game balance. Game balance doesnt include “decency” or “desire to be a team player” as a variable. It means nothing.

@Feculator-2245

I can only repeat myself: here’s the reality of a majority of people preferring RQ, even though LFG and open queue were available. And this is when competitive open-queue was the new hype thing, btw. This was a subjective choice by all those people, but there were more of them (except in South Korea). Whatever problems RQ has, most people seem willing to put up with them in exchange for the benefits.

I am talking about issues Forced 222 introduced and you come with a % of players playing X mode or Z mode.
… what?
Correlation doesnt equal causation. And reality is: They forced choke the 222 on all players for more than 1 year. You cant expect players to magically come back to play something that was put on Arcade (great move Blizz, thank god they rectified like … 5 months after) and expect it to have the same numbers.

Stop pivoting when you get refuted, its quite pointless and leads nowhere.
FACTS still remain. Issues Solved by Forced 222:
Well … at least we dont have 4-5 DPS

Thats it. Problems it brought are more abundant and relevant now. You didnt refute this so that claim stays unrefuted, proven true.
If nothing of substance (no pivots or scenarios/analogies anyone can make) is added, this ends here

[Feculator-2245]

For me personally the entertainment comes partially from being a team player in a team game. I don’t really enjoy my time if I know I’m screwing someone else over.

@Hyphen-21921

Problems it brought are more abundant and relevant now.

Says you. There’s another side of the argument that doesn’t care about those problems. The fact that more people are choosing RQ over OQ would imply that that is the side with more people, would it not? There is no force choking going on anymore, and there wasn’t any at the time when those stats were measured. You can argue the data I showed you is outdated or skewed because competitive OQ was still new and in the arcade then, and who knows, you could be right. Unfortunately we don’t have current data.

@Hyphen-21921

are objectively more than the “issues” it solves.

subjectively* The number of the issues is indeed objectively bigger, but the total severity of them is arguably smaller. Those issues bother you a lot more than they bother me, and again, as the stats I linked show, you are likely in the minority.
Anyway, I have to go, I’ll see you next Tuesday.

[MrSandvich-21925]

@Hyphen-21921

Making up issues doesnt count mate.

Issues aren’t made - up because they don’t fit your personal worldview, mate.

@Hyphen-21921

1 - If you think 222 is the only balanced comp, you could only be more wrong saying 2+2 equals 5

I never said that. There may be more “balanced” comps like 222, however, unbalanced comps are no longer possible.

@Hyphen-21921

2 - It eliminated all flexing, so pseudo and true flexing so 1 - 1 its zero. Null gain, null point.

So just like most of the problems you claim RQ created. Gotcha.

@Hyphen-21921

3 - Hardware has never been an issue in playing a role, not in this universe at least and reducing the potential number of players that can take “your hero” is not an “issue”.

Wrong. Before RQ, whoever loaded first into the game, which is an entirely hardware - dependant issue, would get to pick a role first.

@Hyphen-21921

There you go, debunked.

Self - confirmations won’t make your points any less correct/false, I’m afraid.

@Hyphen-21921

objectively higher

Prove it.

@Hyphen-21921

100% false. You need to learn some maths if you actually believe the number of permutations is remotely even close between OQ and RQ.

Stop putting words into my mouth. I’m not saying the amount of permutations one can make in OQ VS RQ are close in number. I’m just saying they’re in the millions even when examining possible RQ permutations.

@Hyphen-21921

The fact that you dont need to play ANYTHING besides X role its literally enabling and encouraging OTPs. Specially because theres only 1 other person that can potentially take “their hero”.

Each role has at least 6 heroes in this game. What you’re saying contradicts the very definition of one - tricking.

@Hyphen-21921

Before RQ there was only 1 role, so even the uneven matches were not even as bad as RQ ones with 3-4 different ranks in the same match. Dont use “selective memory” because many of us played since 2016 and my claim is 100% correct.

My personal experience, as someone who has also played this game since the very early days, says otherwise. Your anecdotal claim isn’t “100% correct” by the way. It’s just that, anecdotal and is equal in power to my own.

@Hyphen-21921

Imagine still using made up claims debunked by DEVS against LFG.

Where did they debunk anything? Prove it.

@Hyphen-21921

You are complaining about the MM, not LFG.

I made it clear that LFG is a grouping system and is therefore subject to the problems plaguing grouping up in Overwatch in general. I’m not saying it’s the one at fault per se, but there are still problems that affect it.

Once again, you’re putting words into my mouth.

@Hyphen-21921

Oh the I R O N Y of you trying to call out my objectivity when you literally made up issues just to try to “refute” my statements … yeah good luck with that.

Two can play this game, mate.

Isn’t one of your only points against RQ that the amount of possible hero permutations have dropped to a couple of million, as if that’s anywhere close to a problem in any actual real - life situation?

Pretty ironic when it comes to making up issues…

[MrSandvich-21925]

@HULK-23345

My thoughts exactly…

I’m asking you one last time. I know what you’re trying to do here.

Stop including me as a recipient in your responses to Megadodo.

[dOoFmIsT-1168]

Play Bap and dps while healing to
Build your ult so you can continue to dps.
Team needs to be healed? Nah yeet a lamp and dps some more lol

[Hyphen-21921]

@Feculator-2245

There’s another side of the argument that doesn’t care about those problems. The fact that more people are choosing RQ over OQ would imply that that is the side with more people, would it not?

Yeah I could also not care about people dying from Diabetes over me being Lactose intolerant but then again, reality proves 1 problem is objectively bigger than the other.
You are just refusing to accept reality “because I dont like it”. Thats all there is.

People choosing after the changes were FORCED on the entire community for more than 1 years proves really nothing about the actual problems existing vs the ones “solved” or not because those are diferent things. It can also prove something we all know: People have a tough time changing habits.

@Feculator-2245

Unfortunately we don’t have current data.

But even so, you felt the need to throw them here like it proves the issues caused are “tiny” compared with “well … at least dont have 4-5 DPS”. Facts still remain: The forced 222 thing was literally a template from LFG and using it solves the problem for those who find that issue “big”. Then the rest of the game remains free for the rest and both can coexist (same queues, not split).

@Feculator-2245

subjectively* The number of the issues is indeed objectively bigger, but the total severity of them is arguably smaller. Those issues bother you a lot more than they bother me, and again, as the stats I linked show, you are likely in the minority.
Anyway, I have to go, I’ll see you next Tuesday.

Not subjectively, as I proved. Again, denial is not going to help you here nor claiming some magical majority is on your side (ad Populum fallacy) since people choosing X mode vs Z does NOT equal X problems are bigger than Z.

Since you clearly dont have anything and you are replying for the sake of it , this ends here

[HULK-23345]

@Hyphen-21921

But even so, you felt the need to throw them here like it proves the issues caused are “tiny” compared with “well … at least dont have 4-5 DPS”. Facts still remain: The forced 222 thing was literally a template from LFG and using it solves the problem for those who find that issue “big”. Then the rest of the game remains free for the rest and both can coexist (same queues, not split).

Maybe they should let open Q players q into the same games as role queue players, vs each other

[Ihanin-2778]

Welcome to OW post Q4 of 2019. I’ve been complaining about how bad the game feels to play ever since and not too long ago even felt like I had to make a topic out of it. Player behavior and DDA is so horrible in the game right now Games with highly varying skills of players and/or players trolling others and making their gameplay experiences much worse is ruining the solo gameplay experience almost entirely. None of these matches are ever fun one way or the other since even if you win you just feel frustrated at the trolls and feel extremely bad for their teammates that had their gameplay experience and time flushed down the toilet

I personally don’t think that crushing the matchmaking almost entirely with DDA and insane leniency worked for anyone. Lower queue times aren’t actually lower queue times if you spend 10-30 minutes not having fun losing or winning at spawns anyways. It’s better if you didn’t play at all during that time IMHO

[Feculator-2245]

But if OQ is objectively so much better, why aren’t more people playing it? Please explain this. It’s one click further than RQ.

@Hyphen-21921

magical majority

It’s not magical. It’s black and white numbers measured by the developers themselves. I like to imagine that smug little hand icon you love posting is you covering your eyes instead of looking at it. The only straw you have to clutch at is that it’s old data, and this “habit” stuff.
Less people like the thing you like than the thing I like. The developers saw this and are catering to me and my group. Eat it, old man.

[Hyphen-21921]

Some people are in denial about facts and even Developers statements.
Jeff said in several interviews with streamers that if they implemented RQ straight away, the average queues for DPS would be 26mins. Even in GM we have seen several streamers waiting for 45 mins, making a HUGE amount of players literally leave this game.

They adjusted the SR gap between players, making it wider so matches start faster so yeah, we have a dude with 1900 SR tanking vs a dude that has 2700 SR on the enemy team for example. You can imagine the result …
… but hey “at least we dont have 4-5 DPS at some point during the match”.

Ok dude, great