Because Orisa probably has a second barrier ready to go, and now McCree has no counterplay for a Halt! since his roll is on cooldown
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I’ve argued that FTH does too much tank/barrier busting. To that effect I’d suggest people to watch McCree’s PoV in OWL and see how much they use that thing on large hitboxes from a mid range.
The devs are more falible than not, pretty sure I needn’t examplify why on that particular point, so doing “exactly the amount devs want him to do” is worth the same as Geoff Goodman saying Mercy was balanced in the apex of Moth meta.
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You should read the rest, op’s point includes the hero bans
We sort of need to answer what we think “balance” means in this game before we say we can all agree the devs failed to balance it. The game was never meant for each character to have an equal pick rate.
As for right click, i mean, they took moves to make it cost more to use (by increasing the reload time back and making it so he can’t close the gap with it as easily
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You fail to account for FTH doing 45 for a solid 2.5 years, of which time it was widely regarded as a bad ability. With years of data and McCree being in the dumpster, the devs buffed him. This is exactly their intent. You are saying you want to go back to the same ability that we already had for 2.5 years which we already know is bad. Or… perhaps you simply don’t know that because you weren’t around then. Not everybody has been around for OW’s history.
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no
Mcree still needs changes
owl is a whole different ball park than ladder
and the reason mcree isn’t picked is due to how hard the meta has shifted to this dive/rush comp built around coalescence. its the same comp that teams had more confidence in during the season 3 playoffs before justice really showed the legitimacy of hog zarya.
if sombra wasn’t banned she would be played over echo
doesn’t change the fact that sombra isn’t great on ladder
but also doesn’t change the fact she is in a good spot balance wise
Yeah balance has been all over the shop over the years. It’s not bad right now, good even.
Previous changes were nice and I was in wait and see mode. Now I’m not anymore.
Are you intentionally ignoring the game changes over the years? The entire game has shifted dramatically, you’re being very disengenous if you believe otherwise.
Here’s a topic with all the balance changes easily sorted out, no need to thank me.
I get such conflicted feelings when I see the maestro Sigma icon because it’s used by both Poytheon and another user whose threads and responses are like night and day…
Thank you for confirming exactly what I said. You acknowledge that it used to be a bad ability, and yet you still want to put it back to the same state as when it was bad. This only means one thing: you just want him dumpstered for the sake of dumpstering him because of your bias. No need to discuss further as there can be no rational discussion with biased people.
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Oh no you’ve unveiled my master plan! How will I ever conquer the universe now?!
Oh it’s not too late to kill every puppy, kitten and baby seal, you shall not save them!
LoL forums…
Meh…
Often the players want balance for the majority of them (dilver to plat) and not for the pros, but they also want balance of specific heroes as if they face pro widowmakers in silver every game…
It’s just a hate for some heroes in general or the next best one.
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If he was used in June joust or not, I do not know, and I do not care. If I still see him in almost every game? Yeah I do.
You misunderstood what I was saying…
I know this. I was saying why use 6 bullets for 270 damage if it was nerfed to 45 damage per bullet
You must not have understood that I was talking about how if it was 270 that it wouldn’t be good.
I don’t see where you spoke about hero bans
I don’t think McCree would be dumpstered to where he’s unplayable but FtH wouldn’t be very useful. If Doom hits just 1 ability on 1 target he has enough temporary HP to survive FtH, and if he slam->uppercuts McCree flash/fan won’t kill Doom. Doom would have pretty much free reign from McCree.
His pickrate is nearly identical to Ashe’s in the last 3 weeks (hers is actually higher, McCree is 4th). More importantly, the pickrate gap is massive. Echo is at 81% and Reaper is at 49%. McCree is 4th behind Ashe at 3rd, and they are only at 19.6% (Ashe) and 16.8% (McCree). He’s really not being played much without Reinhardt/Tracer/Zen/Sombra.
I’ve addressed this above. 45 damage FtH changes a lot of breakpoints
I understand that. FtH is not “deleting tanks”
That’s exactly how it functions. Mainly for Doomfist & Reaper.
I’m not sure what this means. Can you elaborate?
Reading this tells me something. You are not playing against good McCree’s. McCree should not be the one pressing W and engaging you. It is the other way around. If McCree is being that aggressive on his own he is punishable.
Those players need to try to be more aware. McCree is not allowed to function as you say he functions in higher tiers.
I don’t know what you mean. Winston/Zar is good vs. McCree. Winston/Dva is good vs. McCree. Then if you want range Sigma/Orisa is good vs. McCree. Orisa/Hog can be too.
Dive or outrange him. Reinhardt is simultaneously great alongside McCree and not great against him
We can agree to disagree there. No other competitive game I know does this. They balance based on potential, not on average use
That’s the way it always has been & the way it is in pretty much every game…
In most games I can think of, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty, you name it, there are skill floors and skill ceilings for every option whether it’s a different class or character or weapon. Every player gravitates towards their preferred playstyle. Overwatch is not different in that regard
Widow & Tracer are extremely strong heroes in good hands, but in the average players hands? Not really. That doesn’t mean Widow & Tracer should be balanced so average players can get as much success on them as they can Junkrat or Pharah or whoever their preferred hero is in their skill ranking. Just like I don’t think more difficult tanks (Winston, Dva, Ball) should be buffed just so that the average player can get as much use as they can out of Reinhardt without practice
When there weren’t any heroes banned, McCree was much more popular. Now that Reinhardt/Tracer/Sombra/Zen are banned, McCree is being played far less. His viability declines with other particular heroes banned/not played.
Such as Doomfist.
55 was overkill, 330 was too much. 300 is a good middle ground
Refer to my previous comments. Why use 6 bullets for 270 damage when you can use 2 bullets to the head for 280 or 4 primaries for 280? The 6 bullets has to be worth the investment, because you have nothing for 1.5s after that.
I do understand. My point is McCree is being picked far less with those heroes being banned. Without those heroes, McCree is barely picked at all and vastly outpicked by Echo & Reaper, while being equal with Ashe. Why do you think that is?
Because it’s 300 damage. If it was 270, you would probably only see FtH used as a “low tier cheese thing to do” which is what McCree players want to avoid… we want it to be useful
I wouldn’t call little league football/baseball a different game from professional football/baseball. It’s the same game played at a higher caliber, with better players. Even with rule differences
Yea, I really don’t know why people keep repeating it. In what game is McCree allowed to stand face to face with a barrier and FtH it over and over again to where a Junkrat lobbing AoE nades & AoE mines from a distance is dealing less damage? These McCree’s must be literally invincible or something
Refer to a response higher in this comment. 270 damage is not good enough for 6 bullets. Doomfist can survive Flash/FtH just by hitting 1 ability on 2 people (slam or uppercut will do the trick) or 2 abilities on 1 person (probably slam/uppercutting McCree)
270 FtH changes too many breakpoints. Doomfist would survive Flash/Fan just by hitting 2 people with an ability (which slam is easily capable of doing) and still have 2 abilities left to kill McCree
You were in the last thread. I’m glad you popped up in this one too 
I told you we should see how the rest of the tourney goes, even though you said “no need”. And here we are, McCree only at a 21% pickrate while Reaper is at 40% and Echo is at 80%. It wasn’t a fluke
Punish him. FtH is only useful within 10m or so. If McCree is within 10m of your tanks your entire team is within range to quickly punish him, assuming you have a team comp that is capable of doing so…if your team is forming bad team comps I can’t help you there…
FtH from “quite far” isn’t worth it if you’re not hitting all of your bullets. FtH is only advantageous if all or most of your shots hit. Just missing 2 shots makes FtH not worth it. That’s only 200 damage, while he can use 3 bullets for 210 from 20m away. If FtH was nerfed to 270 damage, just missing 1 bullet makes FtH not worth using past point blank range as you’d only deal 225 damage with 5 bullets, vs. dealing 350 with primaries
Because any competent team isn’t going to let a measly 225hp McCree survive a couple feet away from their Orisa’s shield… if tanks and barriers get shredded so easily in this game how is 225hp McCree surviving to FtH + Roll + FtH in close range of a barrier?
Exactly. They just read numbers off a paper and say OP. It’s like me saying Bastion is overpowered because in theory he can deal 450dps. Sure, if he’s allowed to
PREACH
Get your team to play something besides Rein/Zar then. Dive him or outrange him and he’ll swap
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you do realize hes still very powerful even without rein/zarya right?
As far as I can tell, he’s only been meta when Rein/Zar is being played. When Rein/Zar isn’t being played, other heroes are better.
Also, would you mind responding to this?
Thank you, this is what I’ve been saying. Just because the meta favor McCree doesnt make him broken. The nerf was uncalled for.
McCree is one of the character that I actually find fun to play with and against.
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So you would hold the little league players to the same standard as major league players as far as which strategies are effective and which aren’t, as well as how to deal with each strategy?
That’s over-performing. He’s outpicking 12 DPS heroes in a meta he’s not supposed to fit in at all.
By jove, unless McCree kills literally everything with FTH, even a Doomfist with 60 over heal, FTH sucks?
That’s where the bar is huh…
Good. I’m waiting to hear the problem.
The hitscan hero would need to hit crit shots to do 280 damage in ~1s instead of spamming right click for 270 free?! Wow, what an amazing idea, lets action it.
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There’s your answer.
There is no reason why McCree would be overpowering at this point in time. Again, it’s not that the rest of the damage-role in unviable or that McCree is overpowered. It’s just the metagame - largely determined by tanks - determines who gets played. Most of the Damage-role is struggling for relevancy.
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i’m just gonna reply to this comment and not the 500 reply’s one so,
because reinhardt has a FAT shield with large health and McCree favors that. now since both received nerfs McCree is weaker. his main problem was his FTH, not his reload time
Can you explain what you mean? What hero in particular is he overperforming over? Who should be in his place? I can’t think of a better hero to deal with the 2 being picked more than him, Echo (a flyer) & Reaper (close range & has a channeled ult that is good to interrupt)
You do know how easy it is to hit 2 people with Doomfist right? 1 slam if aimed well can easily hit 3 or more regularly if the enemy team is clumped. Uppercut also has a large hitbox. Doomfist should regularly build at least 60 overheal with his initiation. That is not a high bar at all for McCree to use all of his resources and still fail.
Even if Doomfist initiated on McCree alone, he can instantly build 60hp from slam/uppercutting him, and then he still has punch which could have given him 30hp before or give him 30hp after
If you’re waiting to hear the problem you are neither a Doomfist or a McCree player. Doomfist would have way too easy of a time not being lethally threatened by Flash/Fan
Not an amazing idea considering you can’t “spam” right click, it has a 1.5 second cooldown every time you reload and is only effective in close range. If you’re capable of aiming well, you can use primary in close range to greater effect. That’s what good McCree’s do
Do you think McCree needs another nerf?
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