Well, we can’t know the answer for sure but I’ll tell you my perspective of things. The problem with 270 damage is that the threshold for error is extremely low because for some heroes if it misses a single bullet then he either fails to accomplish his job and wastes both his FB and FtH abilities, or he simply gets killed, specially by certain heroes that can surive the combo and then proceed to kill him, so it wasn’t functional, it had nothing to do with GOATS.
The only way for the ability to be functional if the damage was reduced to 270 would be to make it more efficient by lowering the spread, however, that creates another issue. If we reduce the spread it can lead to FtH becoming too strong at mid range and that would invalidate his left click. I don’t think many people realize how difficult it is to balance this particular ability, it has a lot of potential problems. I understand that some people dislike it but that is irrelevant, it has to be functional, it has to do what it was designed to do and if McCree can’t kill any non tank with it then it’s not working as intended.
It’s pretty obvious that it was for GOATs, they buffed it during the time that the devs started to get VERY desperate, they even tried 55 at first! Lol. (December 2018)
Mcree wasn’t the only one though, Mei, Reaper, Junkrat, Pharah, etc all got a bunch of buffs around this period. Just about ALL these buffs have been reverted, except mcree.
270 damage is not low. It is still very high, especially when combined with roll, dealing 540 damage in such a short period of time. That is not low, never will be, especially on big hitbox targets (tanks) or shields. This is not a problem anymore, we are no longer in GOATs era therefore the buff is now unneeded.
No compensation buffs are needed, it would still do it’s job well (tank busting and shield busting), and could still kill 250hp targets well, besides, you use double headshot mostly anyways. He would still perform well, especially for good mcrees who are head clickers either way.
If you really wanted to keep him good against squishes tho, another alternative is adding a cooldown on FTH.
If one is indeed maried to 300 damage per FTH, remove reload from Roll so McCree doesn’t do 600 damage with a 6 second cooldown on large hitboxes that are pretty much unmissable.
I disagree, it if was the case they would’ve reverted it long ago but they didn’t. They even nerfed McCree hard with the power creep buffs but didn’t touch FtH, that is a clear indication that it had nothing to do with GOATS.
As I mentioned before, McCree was in fact nerfed they took the faster fire rate away which was a huge blow, they just didn’t touch FtH.
This is theorycrafting, In game things don’t work this way McCree is not dealing 540 damage to everyone when he uses FtH and Combat roll.
This is not FtH job. FtH job is to kill any non tank with his FB + FtH combo.
I already explained why this is mistaken. We already tried this and it didn’t work, McCree was failing to do his job and even getting killed because of it.
CD is a bad design idea, it will never happen, it comes with a lot of design issues that make it impossible to work.
This is theorycrafting the game doesn’t work this way. 250 damage for FtH is never going to happen I promise you that. 270 is somewhat possible with some design tweaks but 250 is just murder I am a 100% sure it will not happen.
i dont think you realize, once again, the OWL had HERO BANS which were sombra, tracer, zenyatta, and reinhardt. McCree is favored by shields and zenyatta giving an enemy 25% more damage taken would also make McCree a top 3 pick, maybe in 1st or 2nd place. on the ladder there are no hero bans whatsoever so people can play the meta whenever they want, thats why when rein got buffed in december he made rein/zarya and McCree a must pick until rein and McCree got nerfed, and now that both got nerfed, their not near as a must pick anymore which is great for the ladder but there are still problems that still stand with both characters. and please, for the love of this game, STOP USING THE OWL AS AN EXCUSE TO TRY TO AVOID A HERO THATS OP! yes these nerfs for McCree effected him greatly which is good for the meta BUT his main problem is still there, his FTH.
I didn’t suggest 250. I’m saying 270, 45 per bullet which means 270 damage total.
And I’d suggest one to watch McCree’s PoV from OWL, be it may melee rush comp or june joust against Winston comps, McCree spam FTH+roll on barriers quite possibly every fight. If that’s not FTH’s job, as you argue, then it’s clearly doing its job and then something it shouldn’t.
They didn’t really “nerf” him but rather power shifted him. Less damage (slower ROF), more tanky and anti dive (225hp, flash bang duration buff).
It’s pretty obvious they did it because of GOATs, they even talked about it with other heroes like reaper, they buffed him to try get rid of GOATs.
Spread randomization reduced by 50%
Spread pattern adjusted
Life steal increased from 20% to 30% of damage dealt
If you do some digging, you’ll find a developer post where they explicitly say these buffs were to deal with GOATs, a month later mcree got fth mega buffed. That’s his one tank busting ability, Don’t you think it’s a bit of a coincidence?
That’s why I said most.
For example, junkrat got has dmg reverted from 130 to 120, pharah rof revert, etc.
It isn’t at all. Sure to squishies he isn’t but that isn’t the main subject. The main subject is how fast he can tear down barriers and tanks. For reference, he can tear down a reinhardt barrier faster than junkrat WITHOUT roll.
That’s just plain wrong. You can easily just double headshot for fth. FTH is used for shield busting/tank busting. And it’s not only a low tier cheese thing to do, top mcrees do it all the time.
And the game, and mcree has changed DRASTICALLY since then. GOATs is gone, He has other buffs (i.e 225hp), and pretty much every hero has changed.
If we’re basing the hero balance in OWL then sombra must be A tier hero right? They play an entire different game from normal ladder. OWL isn’t TOP500/GM, they’re a whole world apart.
They play the same game merely in a literal sense, however the skill level, teamwork level, competitors, teammates, and rule sets are all totally different
It’s technically the same game, but it’s not the same game. To think otherwise is foolish.
I already explained why I don’t believe it was made because of GOATS so I will not go in circles on this.
You would have to refer to me to this post as I don’t remember it.
This has been debated a lot and I disagree with what you say. In an actual game, if a team simply allows McCree to spam into the shield and not do anything about it then they deserve to have their shield destroyed. Junkrat has a lot more freedom to spam the shields compared to McCree.
No it isn’t but you are welcome to believe whatever makes sense to you.
Well, I said what I had to say brother and there is no point in going in circles so, we will have to agree to disagree.
That’s not reason enough to keep FTH at 300. McCree has a great primary fire and 270 damage still a forkton of damage.
Shields are supposed to eat damage and cooldowns, doesn’t mean they should be too high. Moira is suppose to heal doesn’t mean she should do 85 HP/s as she did before. Brig is supposed to heal AoE doesn’t mean she should have 21 HP/s Inspire and Hog’s primary is supposed to do a lot of damage doesn’t mean it should be 7 per pellet. Lots of things are supposed to do a load of things, doesn’t mean they aren’t doing too much.
270 FTH allows McCree to do its job perfectly well while decreasing his tank and barrier busting potential.
Just because a character can be dealt with at high ranks and made to be not OP through certain characters being banned/absent or with difficult counters that only other super skilled players can actually accomplish doesn’t mean he isn’t going to be OP for 98% of the playerbase in the game they want to just enjoy every day.
You’re basically telling people “Don’t worry, only the poor people will die on the titanic, but us 1% will survive because we have enough lifeboats for us!” like…
I don’t give a crap if he’s picked in OWL, I give a crap if he’s curbstomping in every game I’m in. And he is.
And I countered your argument with my points I made as quoted.
I will not go in circles either.
I remember these posts happened vividly, but it will take me a while to find it. I’m wondering if it’s in one of the newer developer posts (which isn’t really new but whatever). I would hope you would just take my word on it but I understand if you can’t.
Why? What do you mean “if the enemy team ALLOWS him to spam shields”. What are they going to do? He’s already got insane anti dive, even more so than junkrat, so you could actually argue the opposite.
And it’s not like he has to be super close either, mcree can fth from quite far actually.
Now add roll into the equation, and the fact that most maps don’t even have long sight lines and you’ve got a problem.
Why do you think that fth isn’t used for shield/tank busting? It does 300 damage in such a short period of time, 600 combined with roll. That’s an orisa barrier right there. Here’s a better question, you’ve got a 600hp fresh orisa barrier in front of you. Why wouldn’t you FTH + roll + FTH ?
Doesn’t mean they are either. Your logic is basically they are doing too much because I think they are doing too much. You haven’t actually provided any proof that they are. The fact of the matter is, he’s doing exactly the amount the devs want him to do. Whether you agree with them or not is simply your opinion and your opinion is not a matter of fact.
I disagree with your points, they don’t make sense to me honestly.
If you find it let me know.
The other team isn’t supposed to just stand there and let it happen, the game is complex and a lot of things can happen, a lot of things can be done depending on the map and the situation. Saying that McCree will spam and destroy shields 100% of the time without anything else happening around him is silly to me, that is theorycrafting. Because of that I would welcome replays or videos in which this happens constantly so that we can actually analyze a game and the implications of the whole context.
Is not that I don’t think he can use FtH to shoot at shields, it doesn’t make sense to me that it is an issue in any way due to the overall design of the character. As for tanks, they also are not just there standing and waiting for McCree to use everything on them, there are a lot of things going on in a game. Like I said before, it would be good if we actually took a look at games to make a better analysis of what happens IN the game. What do you think about that, would you like to do that?