Dive him. Outrange him. Defense matrix/bubble do wonders against McCree.
He can not break barriers faster than Junkrat in any realistic scenario.
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Barriers as I have said many times in this thread which you cannot headshot. Either that, or FTH against a diving winston for instance. Maybe finishing of a middle hp winston, Or even just flash fth which still does 250 dmg with 5 bullets, 295 with 6.
And if you’re still so against reverting it, then just put a cooldown on it. There’s no reason he should be breaking barriers faster than junkrat. 0.
Mcree is an anti dive hero so that’s basically thrown out the window.
You can outrange him on a couple of maps which is nice, good thing he has a weakness.
Doesn’t make him less overtuned.
If you think standing in LOS of 20m from a barrier is an unrealistic scenario, that’s on you.
I’m referring to using FtH against enemies, not just barriers. Why use 6 bullets for 270 if you can headshot twice for 280?
Why use 6 bullets for 270 when you can use 2 bullets for 280?
There is a 1.5 second reload animation between uses, which was just put back in place.
McCree can not break barriers faster than Junkrat in any real game. Sitting in practice range isn’t real
McCree is antidive to 1 hero. If he’s against a dive comp, he’s dead as a doornail unless fully propped up by the rest of his team. Dive/rush is actually good against McCree. It’s why right now while Rein is banned & teams are playing Winston/Zar and Winston/Dva McCree is barely being played.
The whole idea of this game is to exploit weakness.
There’s no proof that he’s overtuned.
How does McCree break a barrier faster than Junkrat if he’s not spamming FtH?
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At this point I would not mind separate balancing for ladder and OWL.
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Ok firstly, why on earth are barriers out of the equation when I’m talking about barriers.
Secondly to answer your question, Because you can’t always headshot obviously? No one has 100% HS accuracy. Plus, the burst is higher pretty sure. Also it’s better at close range. That’s like saying “why would widow use her smg when her scoped is better”
Why can mcree break barriers faster than junkrat?
Roll
This makes no sense. Why. Why can’t he break barriers faster than junkrat.
Is it really hard for mcree to look in the general direction of a shield and press right click or is that too much too ask?
That’s already wrong.
Unless you think he’s not good against
Genji doom Ball Echo pharah tracer Sombra reaper echo winston lucio. You could even add mercy to the list as he was used to counter her in her insanely OP form.
He still breaks barriers too fast.
What…? I’m honestly so lost with this point… why wouldn’t he spam fth to break shields…??? That’s literally the point… FTH is the overtuned ability which breaks barriers too fast what the heck…?
no no! well, yes, BUT his reload duration needs to be at 1.2 seconds or 1.3 seconds and just nerf FTH to 45-270 damage and then he’ll be balanced in my eyes
I’ll just help you on that anti-dive hero thing so you can learn how to counter him.
Also to understand why he’s not being used in Owl right now.
After he uses roll and flashbang he’s a sitting ult charge duck.
Dva alone has always countered McCree. Any Echo from pro to my skill level will burst him down as he’s a slow moving target that is easy to hit with sticky bombs.
He can Anti dive one target. But against highly mobile targets playing from various angles he’s not good. He’s going to get countered constantly.
McCree is ok, but there are still better DPS like Echo, Tracer, and even Ashe that don’t share his weaknesses.
He’s solid but when the meta favors Dva he’s going to need a babysitter to put in work.
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They’re not out of the equation. What I’m saying is that FtH wouldn’t be worth using against heroes if you can use a fraction of the bullets for far more damage. The problem is, if FtH isn’t capable of dealing lethal damage to a Doomfist who just dove into you & uppercutted you, (because he would have 310hp, and 270dmg FtH + 25 damage flashbang wouldn’t be enough) what chance do you have? You now have to reload for 1.5s and are flying in the air so you can’t roll. And 310hp is assuming he only hit McCree with any 2 of his abilities and not any of his allies at the same time/beforehand
Of course no one has 100% HS accuracy. But why dump 6 bullets when you can have 6 chances to deal a far superior amount of damage & not leave yourself defenseless for 1.5 seconds while you reload?
It’s not. 2 headshots can be dealt in about half a second. The first shot is fired, there is a 0.5s delay, and a 2nd shot can be fired. FtH takes 2/3 or 0.667s to go off, so 2 headshots is more burst if FtH only did 270. It’s why really good McCrees mostly use primary instead of FtH, even with 300 damage FtH, especially since it uses all of your ammo and forces a 1.5s reload unless you roll
Depending on how close the range is, it can be. If it’s outside of 5m against anything that isn’t a tank primary is better
Funnily enough, in the right players hands they will use scope in close quarters, but SMG is better suited unless you’re a God Widow
I can’t answer that question without knowing how McCree breaks barriers faster than Junkrat first
Has a cooldown. He can roll one time, then there is a 1.5s cooldown between FtH
Math does not support your idea that McCree destroys barriers faster than Junkrat in any real scenario
You misunderstand what I’m saying. He’s good against 1 at a time. He’s not an “antidive hero” to the degree that he counters entire dive comps. In dive comps the tanks & DPS work together to pounce on key targets, McCree can not stand against dive comps & isn’t & shouldn’t be picked against them unless his team is also built for antidive to prop him up. He’s picked to fight against singular dive heroes.
I don’t see how. He has to use roll to do any significant burst damage to barriers compared to most other heroes, which means he’s far less lethal for several seconds & it’s a good time to capitalize on that.
Let me ask again
How does McCree do more damage than Junkrat to barriers? The math doesn’t add up. McCree would have to sit directly in front of a barrier and not die while spamming FtH over and over again to be able to deal more damage than Junkrat to barriers. That is not realistic. McCree will die trying to spam FtH in the frontline while Junkrat is dealing a ton of damage to barriers from a safe distance
Oh okay so you don’t think he needs a direct nerf, you’d rather he have a shorter reload & less damage FtH. I understand.
Still, I don’t think FtH would be very good if it only dealt 270 damage because of specific breakpoints. Doomfist slam/uppercutting McCree would be enough to survive McCree’s flash/fan, meaning dead McCree because he can’t roll in the air (if you notice a pattern, Blizz tried several ways of making McCree the way he’s supposed to function, they gave him an air roll, faster rate of fire, and now 225hp which I think makes the most sense)
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
This is what I’ve been trying to say
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This is just stupid at this point, and I’m starting to believe mcree mains literally just want him OP.
Apparently 22% pickrate is “not being used in OWL”. Yeah, what a joke.
Another thread I heard something stupid like “oh he wasn’t used in 1 match”. Oh no he must be bad. 
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i just think 50-300 damage for FTH punishes tanks WAY too much and WAY too often, that’s why he pushes reaper aside because he’s a better tank buster then reaper is. 45-270 is great because even if he misses 2 shots with FTH it still kills targets that are over 250 hp.
I don’t care about him against a doomfist, Put it on a cooldown but keep the damage for all I care, I’m fine with him being an anti flanker, we need a dps who fits that role, and his stun duration + 225hp enforces this. What needs to happen is something needs to be done about his barrier busting capability. Whether this is 45dmg FTH, or FTH on a cooldown, don’t care, him damage is overtuned.
As I mentioned before, roll.
His FTH has no fall off.
I’ve tried it and you can barrier bust from as far away as possible as long as FTH spread isn’t too much. I’ve tried it from 25m away on mcree, it’s not hard. Because barriers are MASSIVE.
Well yeah that’s my point. Except for barrier busting.
FTH is supposed to be a crutch ability for mcree, It’s not supposed to be a junkrat on secondary fire.
Mcree spamming FTH breaks barriers faster than a junkrat, not including roll. That’s a fact.
A 6 second cooldown, which is incredibly short.
Math does objectively support my idea since he objectively breaks barriers faster than junkrat.
Yeah ok that would be stupid if he could counter an entire dive comp at a time, wouldn’t it. That doesn’t make him not an anti dive hero.
The rest of your paragraphs are just running around in circles about the same thing.
He would still be a better tank buster than Reaper even if his fan did half damage. At least on ladder. I know the Court of Owls uses the edgy boi, but he lowkey sucks in solo queue.
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it is the hour, of the owl, HOO HOO
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good god. How old is OWL? How is people still dont understand that what OWL does does not matter at all to normal ladder players. I find it very easy to understand why McCree is so powerful on ladder and not in OWL.
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How so? Because OWL is basically the only place he ACTUALLY gets results. But explain it to me, as I am clearly crazy.
You will need the community to first learn how to play tank period.
Why are you ignoring the rest of his comment? He made very valid points and you’re dismissing them
Comparing that to 80% Echo and almost 40% Reaper, 22% isn’t a whole lot. No one said he’s not being used at all.
It hasn’t been just 1 match. He has been played considerably infrequently in the June Joust compared to the May Melee. I think I know what thread you’re referring to, and that threads whole point was that McCree wasn’t going to be used nearly as much in the June Joust with Tracer/Rein banned, which has proved to be true. Doesn’t sound so stupid to me 
I can understand your point of view, but he really isn’t that oppressive to tanks. Defense matrix can eat FtH entirely, when I play against McCree I almost always go Dva and any McCree spamming FtH is doing a whole lot of zero damage. Or I can go Zarya and get free charge bubbling teammates that McCree tries to FtH
McCree is not a better tank buster. Reaper deals 120 damage per shot (without headshotting). McCree is doing 70 damage per shot (without headshotting) unless a team is allowing McCree to spam FtH and live. Reaper is doing a lot more damage to tanks
It’s not great. Like I said, all Doomfist has to do is slam/uppercut you. He will have 310hp and kill you every time unless you have help. Did you ever play McCree vs. Doom when FtH was only 270 damage? Not a great time.
45 damage isn’t an option if you want McCree to have any chance against Doomfist. And again I would say FtH already has a cooldown in the form of a 1.5s reload which was just extended from 1.2s unless you use roll, which has a 6 second cooldown.
Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying you should use FtH even if it’s suboptimal just because you can instantly reload with roll? Because I’m pretty sure that’s a bad idea
It does have falloff, it starts at 20m like his primary does because hitting anything besides a barrier past 10m is pretty much luck. I do not believe you’re hitting more than 1 or 2 shots with FtH 25m away on McCree in which case primary is much better (because you’re not using all your ammo) Past 13 or so meters FtH is not worth using at all, not even against barriers. It’s too inaccurate
What does this mean?
How? In what scenario?
Are you talking about McCree standing in front of a barrier using FtH over and over again & timing it vs. Junkrat spamming primary in front of a barrier and timing it? Because that’s not a real scenario. In any real scenario, Junkrat breaks barriers faster, and from a safer distance
Not in Overwatch… most DPS heroes can kill you in less than a second if you’re not a tank. Now imagine 6 heroes wanting to kill you and you have no mobility for 6 seconds because you used it to FtH
Please, explain. I can’t think of any real scenario where this is possible. Sitting in training range doesn’t count
The reason I had to specify was because you said this…
It seemed as though you think McCree is capable of surviving vs. an actual dive comp, and not just 1 dive hero trying to fight him with no outside help, which is not what you should usually be doing as a flanker trying to kill a McCree unless you’re Tracer
So in reality Reaper is by far a better tank buster, ladder just doesn’t play well enough to use him the way the pros do
Yea I find it very easy to understand why too, I already addressed it. McCree is powerful on ladder because of 2 reasons
- Ladder is forcing Rein/Zar and not playing other tanks nearly as much (McCree is both good against Rein and good alongside him)
- Ladder lacks the teamwork/coordination to capitalize on McCree using dive/double bubble/rush comps or outrange him with Orisa comps
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Like you said, it makes perfect sense.
Please quote where I said this.
Your arguments make no sense to me so, we are in the same situation.
Please quote where I said this.
He isn’t, not in an actual game where theorycrafting doesn’t apply.
He doesn’t.
I see that you aren’t really arguing in good faith, which I knew would happen and I knew this would all be a waste of time but meh, it’s not like anything that happens in these forums isn’t a waste of time anyways. Also don’t ignore what I said about watching games, show replays don’t just talk. Lets actually go to the game itself and discuss it, what are you afraid of?
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If you ask me, he has the same problem McCree does, people on ladder do not peel or commit resources to dps when necessary. Professional teams do.
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