Having Mercy be non meta is okay

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Yeah, no. This is just my personal bias kicking in. Other heroes, yeah, they can get fixed. I don’t really care.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Change being good depends on the context.

[Patroclus-21714]

Mercy needed a rework cause Mass Rez forcing teams to play around the enemy Mercy wasn’t healthy.

“B-but you can just kill her before she uses it!!” that can be said about every other hero

“ULT ECONOMY” Are you all Grandmasters or something? Do you all really want casual players to play around a broken af ultimate?

[Arcalias-2773]

@Hyphen-21921

In every mercy thread theres a gazillion mercy mains saying a form of “we didnt ask for this” and that implies that for the other reworks someone did ask for that?.

No it does not.

We’re saying that A =/> R (A does not imply R, R being rework)
That is definitely not equivalent to say | If X =/= A
                                                                  |X => R
Logic.

@Hyphen-21921

They actually did. It was on 100% pick rate with 0 counters to mass ress.

100% pickrate is probably a bit hyperbolic.
And seriously, 0 counters ?
Hold on:

@Arcalias-2773

Whenever Mercy resurects her team, her allies become very visible and immobile during 2.25s. Most of the time they are either all grouped up in a very small area (after a Zarya ult for example) or they are all spread up. They have bad positioning because you had time to take control of the area.
You have the advantage of being the first to shoot.
While they are invulnerable, you have the time to

• Setup the best D.Va ult you have ever seen
• Tell your Reaper to prepare spinning
• Launch your graviton surge to instantly shut down some (if not all) of them
• Ask your favorite cowboy to tell them what time it is
• Use Mei’s Blizzard
• Prepare to release your EMP
• Meteor strike them all
• RIP-Tire in their face
• Blink blink blink recall, then blink again and finally stick your bomb to someone
• Start raining the justice from above
• Prepare to hearthshatter them all
• If you don’t have any of the precedent options available, you can still put their head in the center of your screen, and left click

@Hyphen-21921

And yet is implied. And yet, any non mercy user who thinks the rework is good are constantly thrashed and bashed 100% of the time. So yeah, you may not write that, but the ACTS speak volumes.

Citation needed.

@Hyphen-21921

No when the character is clearly overpowered or has a mechanic that puts other heroes in the same role to shame. If something is a “must pick” not because of popularity but for effectiveness and value, a nerf should be done.

Almost everything had to be nerfed in her kit in order to keep E-rez.
One of her oldest buffs, the one who made her much more viable, has been reverted.
Bad design.

@Hyphen-21921

It was LITERALLY the reason of the rework. Because that skill had no counters. LOL.

Yeah, no counters…

[Hyphen-21921]

This is false and her pickrate has always been high. That often never has anything to do with how balanced she was but rather how popular she was. Also, her pickrate would’ve been particularly high right before her rework because of rework hype.

You are wrong 100% pal. It is proven. Stats were there in overbuff and omnic meta. After invul was added, she was a 100% pickrate healer. She even just rez 1 - 2 man because the Ulti was charged brutally fast (that got nerfed too)

Stagger deaths, save an ultimate, split the enemy up, then kill. Those are the ones that came up on the top of my head.

Im afraid you dont know what a counter is.
A counter is : If you press Q, i can do “this thing” and you dont get to get value or effect from your skill (or it gets interrupted).

People have already refuted those reasons.

Refuted a statement from the Developers agreeing with top 500 streamers and based on THEIR stats (which only they can see)?
Oh so you are calling the Devs liars.

Cool.

Invulnerability was added just because of how underpowered she was and even then, Mercy was slightly underpowered.

She wasnt. You are literally denying the truth.
Mass ress with INVUL had no counters and the developer video that ch …
You know what? its pointless. You are going to deny that too.

These “facts” are objectively false.

Those facts are brought to you by the Developers mate.

Dont think calling them liars its going to work on your favor but cool.

Have a good one.

[Hyphen-21921]

No it does not.

We’re saying that A =/> R (A does not imply R, R being rework)
That is definitely not equivalent to say | If X =/= A
|X => R
Logic.

It does. Logic, reason and maths.
2 persons walk into a room. They are asked about their wealth. One says “Well, at least I AM NOT poor …”
Yeah thats implying the other person is or at least not as rich as him/her.

Im not going to debate on this. Its like 2+2=4 but good luck in life.

100% pickrate is probably a bit hyperbolic.

And yet true. After invul was added there was 2 mercys in EVERY match. Of course it differs in certain ranks but it was there.

Yeah, no counters…

Check the definition i gave. Its the truth, sorry you are baffled by it.

Im not going to keep arguing with facts with people that will never admit they are wrong. Have a good one.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Mercy needed a rework cause Mass Rez forcing teams to play around the enemy Mercy wasn’t healthy.

“B-but you can just kill her before she uses it!!” that can be said about every other hero

I can already think of one thing that would’ve been more effective to fix this and would literally prove that a rework was not neccessary.
Drum Roll

A cast time; something Mercy had previously but was removed for unknown reasons.

“ULT ECONOMY” Are you all Grandmasters or something? Do you all really want casual players to play around a broken af ultimate?

Actually, I am GM but that’s not the point! Ult economy is essential for competitive play. As for casual play, well, it doesn’t really matter… If we balance around casual play, we’d be dealing with a lot of unneccessary hero changes.

You are wrong 100% pal. It is proven. Stats were there in overbuff and omnic meta. After invul was added, she was a 100% pickrate healer. She even just rez 1 - 2 man because the Ulti was charged brutally fast (that got nerfed too)

Firstly, link these stats. Secondly, again, her pickrate has always been high, even when she was underpowered. Thirdly, that is also false. Her ult charges slower than most other ultimates in the game.

Im afraid you dont know what a counter is.
A counter is : If you press Q, i can do “this thing” and you dont get to get value or effect from your skill (or it gets interrupted).

No. A counter is anything that negates or decreases the value of an opposing team’s ultimate.

Refuted a statement from the Developers agreeing with top 500 streamers and based on THEIR stats (which only they can see)?
Oh so you are calling the Devs liars.

Cool.

This is argumentum ad verecundiam. Devs can be wrong too. If we take the devs words as gospel, most feedback would be dismissed.

She wasnt. You are literally denying the truth.
Mass ress with INVUL had no counters and the developer video that ch …
You know what? its pointless. You are going to deny that too.

Funny, because in the video you keep referencing, they never even talk about counterplay or invulnerability. Are you just going to keep making assertions without evidence or are you actually going to provide something worth-while?

Those facts are brought to you by the Developers mate.

Dont think calling them liars its going to work on your favor but cool.

Have a good one.

I don’t think ignoring a whole, well-written argument proving that the reasons behind the rework were bad because Blizzard is Blizzard is good. In fact, it’s a logical fallacy.

[Patroclus-21714]

You do realise lower ranks exist too? I’m not saying the game should be balanced around low tiers but basically saying “Everyone should play around my favourite hero’s game breaking ultimate so I can feel special and game changing because screw you” is getting really annoying.

Mass Rez is gone and for a good reason. Sorry you don’t enjoy Mercy anymore,but spamming the forums daily and talking trash about the devs won’t do you any favours. They’ll just ignore you more. Reworks happen,the devs made this game and they can do whatever they wish with it.

Besides,some of the changes you all want would either make Mercy overpowered again(Mass Rez with Valk on E) or a bottom of the barrel garbage tier hero because she would be so weak(Mass Rez with LoS and cast time)

Besides,Mercy is fine as she is.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Im not going to keep arguing with facts with people that will never admit they are wrong. Have a good one.

This honestly best describes you. All you’ve done is said thus far is, “she’s OP. If you disagree you’re lying and you just won’t admit that you’re wrong”. I’ll let you figure out the issue with that.

[xeNNNNN-2576]

The responses you will get will likely be aggressive and frustrated either ignore them or try to maintain civility. otherwise you’ll just get baited into redundant arguments that wont solve anything.

The issue with people wanting to buff her a large majority wont be happy either way as you cannot please everyone but in this instance Im not even sure a lot of know what they really want her buffs to be like at this point, its just rage now. They cannot stand her being in a bad place balance wise for even a short amount of time let alone this long.

[Arcalias-2773]

@Hyphen-21921

It does. Logic, reason and maths.
2 persons walk into a room. They are asked about their wealth. One says “Well, at least I AM NOT poor …”
Yeah thats implying the other person is or at least not as rich as him/her.

Again, A implies B is not equivalent to not(A) implies not(B)
That’s a common bias.

The compound p→q is logically equivalent also to ¬p∨q (either not p, or q (or both)), and to ¬q→¬p (if not q then not p). But it is not equivalent to ¬p→¬q, which is equivalent to q→p.
(¬p = not( p ))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional

@Hyphen-21921

Im not going to debate on this. Its like 2+2=4 but good luck in life.

I’m actually studying maths, so I feel pretty confident with what I say. But thank you.

@Hyphen-21921

And yet true. After invul was added there was 2 mercys in EVERY match. Of course it differs in certain ranks but it was there.

Nice contradiction. How can there be 2 Mercys in every match if it differs for certain ranks ?
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pdio3LY-Nq0/WVfxLHY3fZI/AAAAAAAAAuw/gsSTdtEGDIA4xfZOf0LEZokkfyNAzyGAACEwYBhgL/s1600/PC_Usage_Overall.png

@Hyphen-21921

Check the definition i gave. Its the truth, sorry you are baffled by it.

Acording to your definition

@Hyphen-21921

A counter is : If you press Q, i can do “this thing” and you dont get to get value or effect from your skill (or it gets interrupted).

Which I agree with.

No check back the counters I gave you.

@Arcalias-2773

Whenever Mercy resurects her team, her allies become very visible and immobile during 2.25s. Most of the time they are either all grouped up in a very small area (after a Zarya ult for example) or they are all spread up. They have bad positioning because you had time to take control of the area.
You have the advantage of being the first to shoot.
While they are invulnerable, you have the time to

• Setup the best D.Va ult you have ever seen
• Tell your Reaper to prepare spinning
• Launch your graviton surge to instantly shut down some (if not all) of them
• Ask your favorite cowboy to tell them what time it is
• Use Mei’s Blizzard
• Prepare to release your EMP
• Meteor strike them all
• RIP-Tire in their face
• Blink blink blink recall, then blink again and finally stick your bomb to someone
• Start raining the justice from above
• Prepare to hearthshatter them all
• If you don’t have any of the precedent options available, you can still put their head in the center of your screen, and left click

They all fit your definition of counter.

@Hyphen-21921

Im not going to keep arguing with facts with people that will never admit they are wrong. Have a good one.

“How dare facts disagree with me ?! They must be wrong !”

Hilarious.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

@Patroclus-21714

You do realise lower ranks exist too? I’m not saying the game should be balanced around low tiers but basically saying “Everyone should play around my favourite hero’s game breaking ultimate so I can feel special and game changing because screw you” is getting really annoying.

Lower ranks is not casual play? Also, we balance top-down. My point still stands, if we were to balance around lower ranks, a bunch of different heroes literally would be getting changed 24/7. Also, I never said that? I want a balanced Mercy. That’s why I always insist on bringing back mass Resurrect. It is quite literally the closest to balance, Mercy has ever been. I don’t know why you had to strawman just now.

@Patroclus-21714

Mass Rez is gone and for a good reason

Atleast try to acknowledge all the evidence that proves the contrary. I’m not trying to be mean but just saying this is honestly going to make you look bad.

@Patroclus-21714

Sorry you don’t enjoy Mercy anymore,but spamming the forums daily and talking trash about the devs won’t do you any favours.

I indeed don’t enjoy Mercy. I’m not the only one. Our concerns shouldn’t be dismissed because of lower ranks. Also, you’re strawman-ing again. I don’t spam the forums and I don’t trash talk the devs… If you’re going to make this claim, please provide evidence accordingly. I’m honestly surprised about these claims because I’ve never, intentionally, indulged in such behaviour. I am well-aware of how disadvantageous it is.

@Patroclus-21714

They’ll just ignore you more.

And that’s just another way of dousing the fire they started in oil.

@Patroclus-21714

Reworks happen,the devs made this game and they can do whatever they wish with it.

Actually, the balance triangle completely destroys this assertion.

@Patroclus-21714

Besides,some of the changes you all want would either make Mercy overpowered again(Mass Rez with Valk on E)

Mass Ress Mercy was historically underpowered so adding a new e ability wouldn’t make her overpowered unless said e ability by itself is overpowered. Besides, most people want either a Cleanse ability or Pacify.

@Patroclus-21714

bottom of the barrel garbage tier hero because she would be so weak(Mass Rez with LoS and cast time)

I’m pretty sure these changes aren’t to make her more weak. We all want Mercy viable. Besides, good Mercy’s won’t have a problem with these changes. These changes are only an issue to those who, you guess it! Hide and Res.
Also, this Mercy suggestion that has accumulated a lot of likes is relatively balanced. Here it is:

@Titanium-1686

Valkyrie:

• Removed.

Resurrect:

• Removed as a basic ability and placed as Mercy’s ultimate ability.
• 15 meter range.
• Line of sight requirement. Does not apply to destructibles, payloads, or non-fundamental map obstacles that are too small to actually obscure a player. In other words, none of that BS where a player can move behind a lamp post to evade a nuclear explosion.
• 1 second cast time. Basic movement is unrestricted while casting, but all attacks and abilities are disabled for Mercy during this time.
• If Mercy is stunned or killed while casting, Resurrect does not activate and Mercy loses all ultimate charge.
• All living allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends receive a burst heal of 150 HP. Mercy also receives this burst heal.
• All dead allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends are revived at full health and receive 2.25 seconds of invulnerability (same as current Resurrect and Resurrect pre-rework).
• Mercy does not receive invulnerability upon Resurrect’s activation.
• Resurrect does not require dead allies to be activated.
• 1625 ultimate charge requirement (the same as Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect).

Most importantly, this takes Resurrect off one of Mercy’s basic abilities and places it into a position that matches its ultimate-like behavior. On top of this, various trade-offs were made to the ability to allow for the healing burst and the introduction of a second basic ability.

The healing burst, post-rez vulnerability, cast time, and LoS requirements all incentivise using Resurrect to revive 0-3 players rather than 4+ players. Attempting to use it on four or more players runs a greater risk a failed resurrect attempt due to the cast time. If Mercy manages to use Resurrect, there is a greater chance that she missed some allies due to the LoS requirement. If those two drawbacks do not drag her team down enough, there is also the fact that Mercy is vulnerable post-rez while her teammates are still reviving.

The healing burst and fire-at-will mechanics on Resurrect make the ability more flexible and open up some unique uses for it. For example, Mercy could use Resurrect to grant her team a burst of healing in the middle of the teamfight to keep their momentum going rather than waiting for an ally to rejoin the fight after being killed and revived.

New Basic Ability - Pacify:

• After a .5 second wind-up, Mercy launches a single hitscan attack from her left hand.
• The projectile’s hitbox size resembles that of Symmetra’s secondary fire.
• The projectile deals no damage upon impact with an enemy. Instead, it applies a debuff that reduces the base damage dealt by the target by 33%. 100 damage is reduced to 67 damage before other damage amplifiers/reductions are factored in.
• This debuff lasts for 4 seconds.
• The projectile does not persist once it hits an enemy. It is only able to affect one enemy for each use.
• The projectile is blocked by barriers, Defense Matrix, and Particle Barriers. It can be deflected by Genji’s Deflect ability.
• 10 second cooldown. The cooldown begins after the ability is cast.
• There is a .25 second wind-down time after Pacify is launched.
• During the wind-up and wind-down times, Mercy is not able to use her staff, her pistol, or Resurrect. She may use Guardian Angel, however.
• Does not affect non-player entities and constructs (turrets, Rip-Tire, Supercharger, etc).

I invite you to give your opinion on this suggestion though, I will warn you; as far as I know, no one has effectively proved this suggestion to be bad yet. You may be the first. Who knows…

@Patroclus-21714

Besides,Mercy is fine as she is.

Not according to statistics. Do you have any proof you could provide?

[comando0110-1632]

When Mercy Mains complain about how boring the hero is after playing the hero for like 9 seasons… Guess it wasn’t boring enough to have 500+ hrs on a hero.

what are you even talking about? why do people keep saying wierd stuff like “she didnt USED to be complete garbage” So WhY aRe YoU SudDeNlY mad NOW???

like its this out there mystery. when i heal all i pplay is ana or luceo and im glad they are viable i never thought it was fun to play mercy she doesnt fit me at all but why should we accept a brokenly bad heros state just because ONCE UPON A TIME she USED to be IN THE PAST a brokenly op character.

nobody is in general complaining about anas state. nobody in general is complaining about luceos state however you spell his name. they USED to be the wrong choice more often. what if people were still super upset now? if that was your argument i would understand. but i dont see why you would be angry about the complaints relating to a clearly misjudged redesign.

[InTheDesert-1983]

Once again, a post arguing mercy is fine based solely on the fact that she was once meta.

[Sly-13591]

Buffing her to a viable spot =/= “ShE mUsT bE mEtA 4eVeR”

[Patroclus-21714]

Okay,here’s proof: I’ve been playing her and she feels fine to me. She’s enjoyable even.

I’ve read Titanium’s post and jesus christ,you need to stop putting them on a pedestal. What,are they like Mercy jesus or something? No other hero mains have like “big people” who they consider their leaders. The hitscan damage reduction ability would just make DPS worse and enable GOATs more. Nobody wants that.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Okay,here’s proof: I’ve been playing her and she feels fine to me. She’s enjoyable even.

That’s not really proof. Personal experiences are not reliable because they always vary from player to player. Do you have anything that’s more reliable?

I’ve read Titanium’s post and jesus christ,you need to stop putting them on a pedestal. What,are they like Mercy jesus or something?

Because no one has yet to successfully refute his most recent thread and he makes fantastic points. You don’t need to be hyperbolic.

No other hero mains have like “big people” who they consider their leaders.

? When has anything ever called Titanium a leader? Better yet, when has anyone ever even mentioned the word “Leader” in the same sentence with Titanium’s name? Honestly, these assertions that literally have no proof need to stop.

The hitscan damage reduction ability would just make DPS worse and enable GOATs more. Nobody wants that.

Actually, most people don’t mind GOATs because of how easy it is to counter. Also, debuffs like this are really good against one-shot abilities which I’m sure, most people dislike.

Buffing her to a viable spot =/= “ShE mUsT bE mEtA 4eVeR”

Tell me about it!

[WorthyAngel-1693]

I’m ok with Mercy being non-meta. Symmetra is non-meta too. The difference is, Symmetra is actually fun to play (for me at least).

[Foxter-2791]

I’m pretty sure fun and balanced here is refering to her pre-rework state.

I was taking about pre rework as well. She was. Not balanced.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Actually, a small buff would’ve fixed that. All in all, a rework was not neccessary.