By trying to combine incompatible things.
Symmetra 3.0 is result of trying to make her “skillful” for aim-oriented players. But, in the process, developers forgot to include proper reward for said skill.
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It was so close though it was infinite tp and the huge increase to downtime that ruined it. Also choosing to keep turrets over her photon barrier was a bad call if they intended for her to be more aggressive and skillful
Perhaps she wasn’t intended to be stronger, after all. Immediate nerf to her, moment she stepped into meta as anti-shield hero.
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Yeah that’s really what I think too. I think the whole rework was a stealth nerf because she was getting too much value on particular maps and they didn’t want to nerf an objectively pretty weak character. So they really only had the option to rework her. And when the rework started letting her preform well against some comps they did another nerf
It’s just what I would do in their shoes if a character while not being played was too good on maps like 2cp. You have to find another way to tone that part of her down.
True, and I suspect Mercy had same fate.
Just when you think, that your favourite hero is safe from dev’s wrath, because they are already considered weak…
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That’s really why I typically always like choosing weaker hero’s to main it just really backfired this time
you’re clearly missing the point about how old sym’s uptime was being either close to the enemy to m1 or to move into their territory to turret it up to zone the enemy, of which is sym3.0 still does and without to, would be doing it in a very similar manner that old sym did. It’s not about value, but about the gameplay.
except when comparing sym3.0 without tp and old sym kits from a gameplay perspective
and that’s (how the hero sought uptime and what they did during downtime esp when the hero in question had plenty of it) a big portion of the old gameplay over a match. of which is leading to my point about how there is significant overlap to disprove the claim that the “3.0 rework completely replaced the hero with a completely different one”.
any differences you presented thus far have been really niche or really situational and minor that make up a very small portion of their gameplay. if the differences are that small, then evidently it disproves that claim.
>“doesn’t highlight bigger picture”
>“the differences are <insert very situational gameplay that doesn’t occur often nor even much throughout a match> and thus she’s completely (i.e 100%) different” 
like do you want to talk big picture or not?
you currently say you want to talk big picture yet I’ve been doing so from the start talking how both would get uptime the same way in a more general sense, spend most of their down time the same way in a more general sense, of which makes up most of their gameplay as that’s most of what they’re doing per match and showing them with vids.
I just like unconventional heroes, that do not rely on speed and firepower to achieve their goals. Healers, that win via heavy supporting; heroes with traps/turrets; and other such characters.
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No I think you are missing the point. In how effective range has changed. And her self defense how hp values have changed. Those are really important when choosing who to fight and what battles you can take
If you thought harder you could see how that changes the matchup list of characters you are willing to fight which is a massive part of this game. But you don’t put thought into how to apply things to 2.0 the only thought you put into 2.0 is how to frame her in a similar way to 3.0
I like unconventional methods of victory. So it took me a while after losing a nonhealing support to find a new way to win in really interesting ways.
I switched to Reddit lucio which is a pretty fun change of pace I went from no mobility to the fastest boi. And I can make so much space with my playstyle. A ton of fun and how I have gotten back into the game
Good luck in your games 
OMG I’ve been saying from the start that both old sym and sym3.0 without tp would be still:
- unable to get into effective range for either m1, orbs, nor turrets (good angles that would’ve lead to being shot down in 3.0 case) without either a team escort or massive distraction so that they can wasd into their desired place
- would still want to zone the same spots as turrets function pretty much the same way
- would still want to take down the same targets due to too high TTK on others and only wasd movement and insufficient sustain
- would still want to use orbs as initial burst before m1’ing when engaging enemies in effective range
- still be spamming orbs inconsistently the same way when they don’t have any opportunities to close in do something in effective range
legit, the big picture of “choosing who to fight and what battles you can take” right there.
the only difference you’ve presented thus far as what would justify the claim that “3.0 rework replaced the hero completely” is old barrier, but as shown previously, it legit didn’t make much of a difference when it came to the conditions to getting uptime/getting and staying in effective range, i.e. didn’t have a huge impact on the big picture “choosing who to fight and what battles you can take”.
Do you understand that their ranges that they are good at are widely different? They don’t have the same effective range that’s a huge part of the equation here.
The one similarity that you keep bringing up is they both have no mobility tools. Yes that’s true but basically everything else is different past that. Plenty of hero’s share the trait of no to low mobility but there is tons of flexibility with how they can be different even with that similarity that you overlook
Man guess who else has no mobility zen and Anna yet they aren’t the same at all because they have different effective ranges and ways to use their kits. This is the most obvious thing that you just can’t wrap your head around
primary only has 2m longer than old primary. current orbs have an effective range of like less than 15m as can be shown by the following:
if you use those equations to find the Dodgeable Direct Range you get approx. 8.522727273m.
can sym m1 from where zen, ana or heck where moira typically positions? hell no.
can sym achieve the same “aimability” with orbs from from where zen, ana or heck where moira typically positions? obviously not from the above calculations. it mathematically shows your argument is wrong.
hence all the points I presented in my previous reply that I’ve been binging up multiple times.
her range did not increase enough to pass nor even reach the point where there is a major change in how she gets uptime without mobility. obvs her sustain isn’t compensating either and neither did old sustain.
No it wasn’t sym 2.0 didn’t have a ten meter lock on that would be nuts. If I remember correctly it was 7m. Compared to 12m now that’s a pretty huge difference.
This is why I question your time with 2.0 you are clearly inexperienced.
So have a range in which you can kill enemies from close to 15m that’s basically double her old effective range. Orbs are also designed to 1v1 and kill enemies now something the old orbs were not meant to do because of low dps.
The old orbs were designed to support the team. The new ones are meant to frag.
Do you play? Like do you actually play the game? Because your equations really don’t apply when you bring in human error. You have to remember our opponents aren’t perfect.
And you thinking almost doubling the range of primary and doubling the projectile speed and charge time isn’t going to change the effective range of a hero is possibly the worst take I have ever heard you write down. Like that’s actually garbage logic that would only come about if you are just arguing to make the opposite point without even thinking about what you are saying.
Dude come on…
No it was like 8m attach, 10m detach. 5~7m was sym 1.0 or so.
It really did not make meaningful difference as shown by how the conditions of use did not change much i.e. still needs escorting or a massive distraction to get in range and stay in range to meaningfully use it.
does adding like 4m on widow’s falloff start range make much of a difference? no because it’s already really long to the point that she’s in effective range in most angles and sniper spots already. similar logic here. the extra 2~4m literally didn’t meaningfully change her usage conditions.
First off, you clearly didn’t understand that calcs at all. it’s not “close to 15m” at all.
the quoted calcs did it in terms of splash radius + projectile radius. but you obviously missed the caveat of the 120 damage from orbs is split evenly between direct and splash (i.e. projectile itself deals 60, and splash does 60, so direct totals to 120 but splash is 60 at most and radially decays to like ~20 depending how far the target is from the impact point).
i.e. only landing splash is equivalent to falloff damage of hitscans already.
yet the calcs show that you can practically ensure you don’t receive direct damage even in 15m, let alone longer ranges
the range where you can start to practically ensure you can dodge direct shots if you use those equations is approx. 8.522727273m.
Secondly, being “double her old effective range” for orbs means very little when old orbs had really tiny effective range. like 2x0 = 0. and 2 x <insert small number> = <another small number>. The fact is, the proj speed increase simply isn’t significant enough to make their effective range meaningfully enough when looking at the conditions for uptime when there’s 0 mobility. i.e. still stuck outside of their effective range for a similar large portion of the game when without mobility.
BIH they’re low dps now still. old dps on orbs were literally low class trash and right now they’re mid class trash.
old orbs dps: 125 damage / (2s charge up + 0.25s wind down) ~ 55.56dps
current orbs dps: 120 damage / (1s charge up + 0.25s wind down) = 96dps < bodyshotting mercy pistol of 100dps (of which is defs more consistent to land from higher firerate and 50m/s)
and you obvs can’t argue the “they’re burst damage weapon fire so low dps is a given” route of saying “orbs are a good damage weapon fire now” because of how inconsistent it is to land directs as shown above.
no, old orbs were simply designed poorly.
- they were bad as an aimed weapon fire obvs because of how slow they moved giving huge leniency to dodge them
- they’re bad as spam because of really low firerate making it so you can’t actually spam it and having low dps
- they’re bad at zoning because of the projectiles don’t achieve much area coverage nor did they have the threat effect of hitscans (i.e. so consistent from just los that it demands targets to take cover)
- doesn’t have lingering mechanics like junkrat bombs or bounce mechanics like junkat bomb or moira orb to occupy target’s area longer
- too low firerate making it unable to “build up” area coverage with multiple shots
- projectile size not being long so it wouldn’t be occupying a line/“lane” of area long through slow linear speed (this is how hanzo’s ult zones, being slow isn’t enough but to also have the projectile be long is how it occupies a large enough space to compensate and work with the slow speed; otherwise it can easily and quickly be side stepped and the target can just not care)
- those are all the directions a damaging projectile weapon fire can take and it’s bad at all of them. and worst off, the orb pierce makes it so that if you try to number the orbs so that it’s decent in any 1 of the above directions, it easily becomes oppressive because only dva DM could “block” them back then.
and the thing is, aside from that limiting orb pierce factor, sym3.0 rework didn’t change the above characteristics/problems about orbs.
the “Dodgeable Direct Range you get approx. 8.522727273m” that was calc’ed used an assumed reaction time of 0.25s which is from Human Benchmark .
when you need like $20 to buy something you want but you have like $1 and then you managed to double your balance once to $2, do you have enough money to pay for the thing you want? rhetorical q, answer’s obvs no.
Again I don’t care if either version is weak or not that doesn’t matter the work you can get with the character will just determine what mmr you will end up at. The thing is they just play very differently. Which you can see by them having different effective range max hp different utility. You think that they play the same is the issue I have it makes me think you are a beginner with one of them
The easiest thing to look at is the gun they don’t have the same gun at all anyone can clearly see that. New range damage values and utility on both aspects of the weapon
You thinking that both iterations play the same is what’s stupid here. That really can only be brought down to one thing you not having experience playing one of the characters
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how the hell did you miss the point that the changes didn’t meaningfully change how the 2 kits (when without mobility) got uptime and how they spent downtime for most of the match time in terms of gameplay?
Your view is wrong though you don’t understand the kits which is the issue here. How can I trust your idea of what good uptime and downtime is when you have barely any understanding of how to apply syms old kit
I get the impression you never learned sym 2.0 in any meaningful way so I don’t accept your ideas of her uptime and downtime. You don’t have the skill needed to make those calls
Your reasoning completely relies on the fact that you know how to play sym 2.0 and that your interpretation of those clips is correct. I don’t believe that to be the case though
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Till this day I can’t believe that OwU actually wrote a thesis essay about Symmetra…
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I literally showed you all the numbers and numerical proofs. you refusing to believe in the kit numbers nor the hard logic and facts the come from that is a you issue.
have you presented how different your “interpretation” of what was happening in the clips? no.
have you even presented what your “interpretation” of what was happening in the clips? no.
heck you barely even ackowledge what’s even happening in the clips. why? because you know that it legit wouldn’t be different.
they couldn’t advance further up or go further into enemy territory without either a team escort or a massive distraction irrespective of old barrier and shield gen because it’d be suicide to do so. why? because insufficient tools in her old kit.