Toxic solution: Remove TEAMMATES stats until end of game

General Discussion
42

I turned chat off long ago because i know my teammates half the time has nothing productive or mature to say

Thy are just looking for an exuse for false reporting you abuse chat. Add that up 4x if its a troll 4 stack you get matched up with.

I have already been silenced once in this game because of 4 stack trolls that mass feed and report the one player that tries to win the game and plays the game properly.

So im not letting them get the pleasure of doing it again. If im playing with a 4 stack i dont even use pings cause once you ping an area or ping a player you are wide open for false reports casue you can now get reported for spam that act like abuse chat but for pings.

4 Likes
43

Read, what other very experienced players write about the stats and then your own post.

obviously never played with a good Widowmaker

look above

What you write here tells me clearly, you aren’t able to use the information included in the stats in a way to enhance your play. Otherwise you wouldn’t stand your point here.

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44

If you watch the streams or VoDs of any of the top players, especially during a tournament match, they are constantly pressing Tab to check numbers and talents. It is a habitual reaction for the best players in the game, and one that I try to follow as I find it does improve my play, especially as a tank or off-laner.

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45

Great example! How can you possibly complain about 5 man stack when you have no idea how the other team is comprised? Maybe someone recognized his opponents AND their friends to draw the same conclusion… but I never recognize the people I play with or against. But I guarantee complaints about 5 man stacks went down due to us not being able to see it.

True. If everyone on a team dies 3 times and 1 person dies 12 times… it will still be noticeable. That is a rare scenario. A more common scenario is: I died 6 times and you died 8 times. I see this in the stats screen and rip you for being the worst player in the game. If I didnt have the stats screen I would have no idea if you died slightly more, slightly less, or the same amount as I did… and therefore keep my mouth shut and not risk looking like moron when I find out you played better than I did.

46

What would solve or limit the toxicity is player council reviewing the reports, but it would have to be programmed and no one will put money into it right now.

47

You can see it after the match and as I also told you, the complaints have actually increased on the forums about this issue. There is almost a daily complaint thread about it.

Any toxic person is NOT going to keep their mouth shut stats screen or not, they will find anything. In fact I can give you a good example. I’ve often kept my chat muted. When looking at my replays that show all conversation, people have actually thought I had responded to them and they carried a on one sided conversation for the entire match.

Removing statistics will not remove any toxicity. It’s like silenced players, they ping spam, if someone dies they will use the prompt “X player will repawn in 20 seconds” to register their disapproval.

Remove the statistics and I won’t know if I’m doing my role of Tank correctly, am I helping my KT get the damage he needs? If I’m learning a new hero who uses an ability that’s a skill shot that gives healing, how will I know if I’m getting the healing I should from it? This also applies to any new hero you’re learning. When you’re trying out a hero and testing builds, you need those statistics, you don’t just go on “feels”.

Removing statistics will only punish the people who aren’t breaking any rules and won’t stop those who are prone to be toxic.

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48

That always goes well. The last thing HOTS needs is players to pass judgement on reports.

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49

Nowadays every “negative” thing, even if you don’t agree with someone, is the definition of negativity for most of the people, which is sad. Now stats are something toxic for you.

The toxic behavior has been so diluted that people will use this term to refer to anything, even remotely negative.

Toxicity isn’t something that can be removed.

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50

Why would I ever care what any toxic person said?

When have they ever been sensible, well-adjusted people? Toxies are almost exclusively people beset upon by their own problems, lashing out online because it’s the one place they can well and truly ignore all consequences.

If you think inferiority complexes and projection will vanish or even reduce because of hiding stats, you’re wrong. In fact, it would just turn into more reason for people to be toxic, because they’ll recognize they’re beingr repressed and will lash out.

You can’t fix toxicity. Don’t even bother trying. All you can do is hide it under a big playerbase.

51

even if you remove stats you won’t eliminate the problem you’re addressing: toxicity. The goal post will just be moved.
Instead of, “look at how low your damage is”
it’ll be, “your damage is probably crap anyways”

4 Likes
52

But the analogy holds true. Regardless of what you think about 5 man stacks, would removing the ability to see that increase complaining or decrease complaining?

Lets just agree to disagree. What is true is removing stats wont remove ALL toxicity.

The more I hear this, the less convincing it seems. There are literally hundreds of variable that can affect your numbers at any given moment in the game. Such as:

  • Your team comp?
  • Your opponent team comp?
  • Hero builds (this alone counts for hundreds of combinations)
  • Progress on any talent quests going on
  • Are 1 or more hard counters in the matchups?
  • Are your teammates playing their main or a heroes newer to them (or somewhere in between)?
  • Are your opponents playing their main or a heroes newer to them (or somewhere in between)?
  • How much CC does your opponent have?
  • Lane matchups
  • Ult combos
  • Timing camps just before OBJ
  • Getting to OBJ before your opponent
  • Do they have a turret for the fight in the OBJ?
    etc. etc. etc.

I could go on but thats just thinking for 5 minutes. So to say you are gonna spend 5 seconds on a stat screen and normalize all of those variables to draw an accurate conclusion about how your other 4 teammates are doing and what tweaks need to be made… Thats not happening in the games Im playing in.

53

It sure didn’t decrease it on the forums, if anything I would say it’s worse since they removed it.

Ignore everything if you want. As I pointed out when you’re learning a new hero you are testing different builds, talents, learning your skills and synergy. Without any data you don’t know how well you’re performing IN game.

I will again repeat. Why should people be punished by having valuable information removed, for the small chance it may reduce toxicity? You want to punish the innocent for a theoretical decrease in toxic behaviour, that seems to me a punitive approach.

2 Likes
54

I understand what you’re saying but as you present one side of the story I must present the other side and weigh the values of each.

I said that with or without the stats sheet, people are toxic. While you are removing important information for players who are not toxic.

Yes, it will reduce some of the toxicity. Not enough for removing the stats sheet.

We want it to be better of course. As I said, there are much worse things making people toxic in this game.

This is what new players say. I say this all the time, and I never look at the stats sheet. Mainly, because I don’t know how it applies and what I need to do with it. So I just say, “I’ll just do my best.”, and if people are toxic because of my numbers? Oh well!

Toxic people see the stats sheet completely ignorant of what the numbers mean in the current situation. They will see a healer with low healing and essentially say they are AFK and report.

A good player will see a healer with low numbers might mean that they are being harassed or the team is taking very little damage, AFK if they monitor their actions.

Both your examples are about understanding how the game works. Your hero may not be good at soak. Your assassin may be put in a situation where they can’t be effective. You aren’t able to watch for all this. The stats sheet is there to show you at a glance what needs to change. Leadership skills and the ability to interpret information is how a good player uses the stats sheet.

In the end of the day, the stats sheet is only an excuse for toxic players to be more toxic. While a normal player could use this info to the benefit of the match.

It’s just more information for players to use. Without it, we would have to make a lot of guesses on what should be done to improve.

I, in the past, argued that I never use the stats sheet because each match is different and numbers will fluctuate. So there wasn’t a real need for me to even bother looking at it. But seeing your healer with 0 healing is an easy way to tell something without having to waste time watching your teammates when you should be watching out for the enemy.

55

But thats a false choice:
Eliminate all of it, or none of it.

Toxicity is a volume game. Is it a problem when it occurs in 10% of your games? No.
Is it a problem when it occurs in 75% of your games? Yes.

Basic human nature: Whatever you make more difficult, you get less of. Whatever you make more easy, you get more of.

This entire thread is about reducing, not eliminating. :slight_smile:

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56

Ok so if you just replace the word “eliminate” with “reduce” in my OP then the point still stands. The toxicity will stay the exact same as people are not toxic BECAUSE you can see stats. People are toxic because they chose to be. Knowing whether someone has low stats is not the catalyst for toxicity. Toxic people are. You would have to reduce the number of toxic people playing the game to achieve your goal.

This is why systems like banning and silencing are in every online game. Because it’s the people who are the problem, not some arbitrary game mechanic.

57

It’s so very rare that people are toxic solely because of the numbers. Something’s probably already going wrong in the game and so the lack of stats won’t really change that. For me, it’s often this unsettling feeling someone specific is not pulling their weight, and the stats confirm it.

This isn’t just a tool I use on our side. I see what the enemy is doing, I see what heroes can pull off, and overtime, and through different phases in the game, your overall heuristics becomes more refined of what is and isn’t possible. That’s why when someone complains about Tyrande’s damage as a healer, I instantly roll my eyes because she’s actually the highest damage dealers for healers. Yet I also know that she’s also one of the lowest heal out put healers, but that doesn’t mean her heal output should be half of the enemy healer. That’s still woefully inadequate.

58

The toxicity is the presence. Your score, your pick, your tone. Whatever. They’re just gonna be toxic regardless what it’s about.

You could all be staring at a blank screen. Toxic players will find a way to be toxic about it.

You don’t reduce them here because they’ll just smurf around anything.

Don’t seize on information good players can constructively use, all in the name of attempting to rob toxic players of what is ultimately just their personality.

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59

Caught me there, don’t really watch that many streams or tournaments (at least from player perspective). But the operating word there is habitual. Yes yes, we might find some cases where having access to statistics is useful but still by and large it’s a distraction. At certain level (especially tournament level) I’d expect you to be able to gauge most things by the feedback the game gives you, including whether or not you’re winning a lane or teamfights, because it’s kinda obvious if you aren’t. And I probably don’t even need to say this but one should always try to improve, whatever the numbers say.

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60

Seeing stats is incredibly valuable especially to a player learning a new hero. To give an anecdote, while I was learning how to play Maiev I noticed that my damage was extremely low compared to other Maiev players I saw. So I changed up my play style a bit. I’m still no Ultralisk by any means but by focusing on weaving in basic attacks and landing multiple Q hits instead of just a tether I became much more effective.

I’ll go one step further and say we need damage breakdowns for each hero. I should be able to mouse over my damage and see a window that tells me exactly how much damage I’m doing overall with each ability. This could help me see more easily see where my bread and butter comes from and what I should focus on or improve.

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61

I wasnt really ignoring… I was adding to it. Lets say there are only 100 variables in the game that affects your stat numbers. You take a snapshot of the stat screen at 6 minutes and 24 seconds into the game…

What are you comparing the numbers you see against? The last time you played that hero with that build? Did you look at stats at 6m24 secs in that game to, for a point of reference?

You cant control only 2 variables out of 100 and have the other 98 be different, and make an accurate comparison or accurate analysis.

My point being I think people are overstating the value of these stats (and their ability to draw conclusions) as a single number of “Damage Done” is the summation of 100s of variables which are all different from game to game.