The Ladder is Broken

General Discussion
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It’s impersonal. It promotes an environment where participants lose the human component of competition, a component that, in my opinion, is the single most important one in competition. Knowing who you are competing against is paramount in creating a competitive environment and necessary to the competitive experience.

Or at the very least, maybe you don’t know the name of every player on the opponent teams, but you are intimately familiar with the team itself, because you regularly play against them.

This concept is important to the competition. Watch any tournament and you’ll find that a huge part of the excitement of enjoying it is directly related to the personalities and the rivalries inherent in the experience.

All of that is completely obfuscated in SL and it’s completely unnecessary and unwarranted.

Nobody is talking about individual player’s private information. Your username would suffice. A team name would suffice.

Even in the real world of organized team sports players “names” are on their jerseys.

Nobody signs up to a Volleyball League with an expectation that they or their team will be invisible to all the other participants and instead be presented with a collection of progress bars and out of context statistical data.

You’re misinterpreting seasonal result with rating metrics used to place players into pools of other similarly skilled players. MMR has it’s role in making sure the games remain fair. Nobody signing up for a real world league would be expecting to play against professional (though there’s nothing inherently bad about agreeing to such a scenario either). Professional basketball players aren’t going into it with the expectation of equal footing at a casual amateur league. The League will have rules to prevent such obvious issues.

This doesn’t address my complaint. The fact that I’ve been sitting at the exact same rank with the exact same points for over a year defeats the purpose of the expected experience.

Again, you are confusing competition with skill ratings, whose only purpose is to ensure you are place into a fair game, not rank you according to some “skill” metric.

When playing in an organized team sport, your teams performance for Season 1 maybe be dramatically different than your performance in Season 2, which may also be dramatically different than your performance in Season 3. Each Season is it’s own event that isn’t a measurement of some skill quotient.

The best I can do to highlight this is present this video on the topic…

Team Rosters specifically. In the original interation of Team League, players formed a Team of up to 10 players. The TEAM was rated and ranked according to it’s performance, with individual players rotating in and out of games. Individual ratings were not kept on players in this context. This, in my opinion, it the ideal way to provide a competitive experience for team games, as it mimics most closely the real world competitive experience and that of most organize tournament leagues.

I’ve played plenty of Diamond games as well. It’s the same experience regardless of what Rank a player has.

82

Exactly as expected. I’m NoT tHe PrObLeM

1 Like
83

Believe me when I say it. I understand that. But from start to finish, you don’t seemed to be distinguishing IRL relation and that of in the internet.

No, it’s what internet, multiplayer game experience is (unless you participate in RL tournaments), not just limited to SL. I even asked which game pvp does what you’re describing. If there is an example, HotS can mirror it. If not, what do you expect?

Rest is you still not distinguishing RL stuff to internet stuff.

How so? You seemed to be describing the usual season reset where everyone starts from scratch, no?

There seems to be a problem to you because of how B5 rank works in HotS. I was shedding light on it, and surmised, making Wood league fully visible might change your perception. And this again relates back to season reason, which I’m against (reset after 1 year, I may agree with it).

You’re confusing how league system works with how ladder system works (not to be confused with Storm ‘League’ name). Most sports follow a league system. They fight everybody, every team several times over the season. Then comes the playoff, but that is a separate category. In ladder system, you don’t. You don’t play against GMs, but players around your level. You climb to play against better players. Forcing lower level players to play against top players is unfair. And most multiplayer games use ladder system for fair matchmaking.

Will watch later, not now.

Sure. But as I said, we know that can’t be implemented. Maybe MS will do something about it. Or they might shut the servers down :skull:.

Still didn’t see proof. Circumstance suggests you were in Silver. You didn’t refute it. Unless your name is “2t”, I still can’t believe it. And even if you were, I would argue against your next sentence.

84

What I get from this, that part of your problem is playing against the “same” ppl (in the same rank).
That you can’t enjoy the competitiveness because you’re stuck.

But the thing is, ranks are the leagues. If you don’t perform well enough in rl sports, you don’t really get put into a higher league or championship either.

Every season gives you a chance to leave your current “league” (bracket, rank).
You staying there is the result of your stats against the other competitors’ stats. It’s not good enough to rank up.
The progression bar you dislike so much (and can just not look at instead of asking for its removal) just notifies you about the requirements to switch leagues/championships.

How the ladder works is actually closer to rl ports than you give it credit for, partially because you draw the wrong parallels.

The only thing that HotS lacks is more stable group of teams.
But you can always form your own.

And tho you need to do a ton of homework to search for those playerstats, and you can’t play against fixed teams, you still compete against the others, you still beat them when you can.

It’s still competitive.

85

It’s only been that way for the past decade. Before that competitive ladders are completely unlike that. So saying “it’s this way because it is” is a bit naive to the history of video game competition, even automated, online ones.

No. The usual season reset motif often implies resetting MMR, which I’m not advocating at all.

This wouldn’t be so confusing if every single player wasn’t already thrust into a monolithic ranking structure that applies to casual amateur players all the way up into hardcore professional ones.

Midget or High School football teams are not ranked on the same scale as the NFL either. But that’s exactly what HotS does. And it does it in a way that provides very little meaning or context.

The only exception is Grand Masters, who are the only players who are provided with a ranking that best mimics that of real world sports.

NFL teams don’t compete against Midget football teams. But that’s exactly what HotS does in the structure of SL. Not only that, but it obsfucate the actual competition in exchange for poorly designed MMR rating as “rank”.

Basically, your HotS “rank” is the equivalent to comparing a highschool football team’s performance against other high school football teams in comparison to NFL teams. THis is a meaningless comparison.

It’s also not THE competition. Nobody playing High School football in the context of how “skillfull” the individual players are compared to NFL players.

The entire premise of it is absurd.

It can be. It has been in the past. The problem isn’t that this isn’t possible, it’s that it wasn’t producing the player engagement numbers that Blizzard wanted to sell skins, portraits, sprays, mounts, etc…

In other words, it wasn’t monitizable.

That’s like saying I’m can’t enjoy the drunken dart league down at the local pub. It doesn’t make any sense in the context of my argument.

This is a YOU problem, because you are invested in and overly focused on “skill” metrics rather than competitive experience of a organized team sports league.

Ranks are not leagues. What you are thinking of (Bronze thru Diamond) are simply an abstraction of various flexible player brackets or “buckets” from which the match maker can selects similarly “skilled” players from whose MMR can be used to predicts “evenly matched” games.

All of these players play in the same “league”, they are all a part of the same spectrum of players. In a single season it’s entirely possible that a player in Bronze 5 earns enough points to play against players in Diamond 1.

This is not at all analogous to real world team sports leagues, professional base ball for example, where players are organized into various leagues based around individual player performance as judged by the professional organization (ie Major and Minor leagues).

In that case, ranking happen at the Team level. Individual players are not competiting against each other so much as the team are. So even if an individual player get’s pull from the minor league into the major league in the middle of a season, the team ranks are completely unaffected.

Nobody participates in a baseball league with the intent that they would be individual ranked, with that affected the outcome of the team’s season results.

Again…

86

Basically had no substance in it, totally not related to the topic.

Yes, after esports and whatnot began to properly set in, after devs understand how to make a competitive ladder experience. If you’re talking about SC1 era, iirc, it was free for all, anyone against anyone, was it not? But judging from what you’re saying, that’s not what you want either. Not to mention, it generally being 1v1 game.

Best way to express, give example of what you want, how it should be, is by naming some other MOBA game. If there is no other MOBA game or team game that has implemented of how you want, there is little point in demanding it now, is there? You’re likely demanding something unachievable in internet/multiplayer experience, unless VR or something.

I think I’m beginning to understand what you want (or am I). It seems despite what you said about dopamine, engagement system or whatnot, that seems to be what you want, a sense of accomplishment, achievement. Is something like a minor league and major league in HotS what you want? Top players put in their own league to compete, lower players put in their own league to compete, lower players being able to achieve top in their own league.

I was talking about current state of HotS. No support, declining playerbase. Realistically, it just can’t be done in HotS right now.

I mentioned this part as well. It just depends on how you approach the matter. You may not like the way it is competitive, but SL is/can be competitive nontheless. Minor league, designated team members, may be what you want (I assume just like your old days of playing HotS), doesn’t make SL what you say it is.

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eSports have been around longer then when the cool kids in high school realized it was the cool thing to do.

If you think that, then there’s no point in bothering to continue to engage you in the conversation.

:man_shrugging:

Nope.

Have you ever played organize team sports? If not, that would explain why this is such a difficult concept for you guys to grasp.

It’s not that I don’t like it, its not competition.

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Not at this level. Point was how devs focused on creating a competitive environment in their games. Old games in-game competitive environment doesn’t come close to current ladder system.

What was talked about in the vid only applies to GMs, top of the top players. His examples even give away that. While there are plenty of good players out there, among GMs, it’s pointless to compare who is more skillful than who and stuff. That is not the case for players below that. HS is still different as it has more RNG element in the game, much less with HotS. To even imply skill between lower players and top players can be ambiguous is total delusion.

I already said several times that I get it. It’s just that you seemed to have hard time undetstanding RL stuff =/= internet environment. Internet is convenient, quick, but it comes with limitation. Name a recent game where you liked the competitive environment of. If you can’t name one, case in point.

To you. That’s the main takeaway. It’s how you make of it. Not everyone needs every aspect prepared and presented to them. One may only need oneself to compete, play competitive.

89

I’ve got some sad news for you, “this level” equates “how do we monetize these idiot kids who are obsessed with comparing progress bars?”

No, they literally focused on how to monetize esports. How do I know? I’ve talked to the actual Devs, I’ve been to the GDC panels about the topic, I’ve read the articles about the psychology of player engagement and how it can be utilized to manipulate players into engaging with the content that can be monetized.

Absolutely not. That’s a very strange take to get out of that video.

Where did you get this concept from?

I regret to inform you that “the internet” IS REAL LIFE STUFF.

90

What you’re talking about is pretty recent trend, not, what was it, was it ‘decade’ you said back then?

I would say there is a reason you didn’t name any games, decades ago, or more, which you liked the competitive environment of.

Again, there is a reason his examples even depict that. Tournaments, top players, not lower players and top players’ “skill”. I already said, in regards of top players, I pretty much agree with him. I don’t agree with stretching what he said to one end of the rank to the opposite end. That’s just nonsense.

I think I failed to clarify. I agree with him regarding similar rank players, not Master and Silver or something comparison.

Case in point of how you have a hard time understanding the difference. People are real, what goes around in the internet, not necessarily.

Your internet friends, majority of the time, are not your ‘real’ friends. It’s just two, or more, people with similar hobby, opinion that socialize with each other for a common purpose. You may decide to meet them in real life and becomes friends, still not real friends until you do that when one can even live in a different country. What’s happening on Twitter is not real real either. What’s happening on this forum is not real real, compare to real debate, discussion you may have in real life.

Unless you bring in your IRL friends to play with you, your would-be team members are not your team team either. It has way more chance to fall apart than your team from RL activity because all may have different schedule, issues, culture.

I’m talking about superficiality of it, even competitive scene of it compare to RL one. But you more or less want RL experience moved onto internet experience.

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Such a naive world view. I can now see why some of you are so desperate to defend your positions. You’re beliefs are based on fantasy at the very start.

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Interesting :thinking:. It’s usually other way around that is said, to people who take internet way too seriously. You could’ve called me a boomer or something, which I am not, for not acknowledging the importance, significance of internet, which I did not, but the word naive, fantasy feel completely backwards.

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i don’t know man, you have this fundamental belief that reality isn’t real. That just because it’s “on the internet” that this makes it imaginary and subject to laws and rules that cannot exist in reality. That’s just bizarre. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Not at all. If anything it seems that you are young and naive, that you have little life experience, and that you need to “get out of the house” a bit more often.

I suggest signing up for a local sports league where you can participate in an experience other than this internal fantasy you have built up for yourself that bares little resemblance to reality.

Good luck.

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Never said such.

Neither this.

Again, it’s usually said the other way around, to people who put way too importance on what they do on the internet.

Another case in point. Looks to me your advice should be adopted by you, get out more.

Internet is just a platform (for reference, nobody calls reality/real life, a platform). There is an attempt to make it bigger, significant via VR, but we’re not there yet. I doubt you’re active outside the way you’re portraying here to be (because you sound like people who put way too many eggs on one basket, the internet, want most of everything to be done on the internet).

Back to the topic. So no examples of games where you liked the competitive environment of? Games these days do seem to focus too much on convenience (quick and easy) instead of socializing/human aspect (like old WoW), but if you can’t even name one, it’s likely what you want is not here yet. Wait for widespread VR or something (though, seems like humans want to keep what makes us human. not seeing VR being successful soon).

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While having a nightmare, the worst ones (for me at least) are when all sense of time is distorted and it feels like the nightmare has been going on for eternity rather than minutes. This thread is similar to that experience.

Zenasprime, I’ll concede some of your points about the ladder system. You’re correct, it doesn’t function like an organized sports league, but even if Hots had guild functions, it still wouldn’t be a one to one equivalence to IRL sports. You can though change that by joining one of the amateur leagues that still exist for Hots.

Other than the above option, yes you’re right, Ranked in Hots isn’t an strictly “organized” experience. I reject that this alone is the reason you can’t climb ranks. I climbed from Silver to Plat and while I reached my skill limit there, I’ve had friends climb to Master from Silver, so I know it can be done.

Personally I think allowing people to party for Ranked two ranks apart is a fair criticism you could level at the integrity of the ranked ladder, yet I haven’t read anywhere in this thread where you bring up that point. (If you have please excuse me as this thread is far too long to read.)

Allowing players to group 2 ranks apart means more uneven matches, players should only be playing with an against people in their own rank IMO. Allowing people to stack ranks like this, also allows for smurfing where that Silver 5 smurf player is really Diamond on their main account, all this messes up ladder integrity and match quality.

Even conceding all that, this hasn’t stopped players who are truly skilled from climbing to Master or GM rank. If you posses the micro and macro skills you will climb, no matter if Ranked play in Hots isn’t truly “competitive” in the strict sense.

At any rate, on the US server it takes often five minutes to get games in Plat, so I’d suggest you just enjoy playing while there are enough players to keep the mode alive and not take it so seriously. Obsessing enough to write 36 posts in 3 days regarding this issue suggests to me you’re taking a video game far too seriously.

At any rate, as always I wish you the best in your climb and perhaps keep in mind that the visual symbol of your rank is only as important as you choose to make it.

1 Like
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Human behavior and psychology doesn’t magically change just because it’s “on the internet”.

I’ve played competitive sports my entire life (50+ years and countring), from childhood into adulthood. I’ve been playing competitive video games for decades. I’ve traveled extensively for the past decade. I’ve had two separate professional careers, including… wait for it… game development. Worked for a variety of professional organizations, started my own businesses, and have met uncountable peers in those fields. I’ve organized a variety of different types of events, ranging from music to social organizations, to… wait for it… video game tournaments! (imagine that!)

I have no doubt I’ve lived two lifetimes of “getting out more” compared to many of the posters here on the forums.

But what do I know, this is just the internet, where none of that experience applies!

:man_shrugging:

97

Never said such either. But I can make both arguments agreeing or disagreeing on that statement (such is with most debates).

As I said, I was talking about superficiality of/on it. Didn’t hear any refutes yet. I even said some (‘competitiveness’ in this case) can be more depending how you approach it, that doesn’t change the fact that internet is still internet. It’s just not reality.

That wasn’t to ask your life story.

Oh, good. Real life interaction, not of the internet.

Oh yeah, this. Blizz game fans are older than you’d think though.

That was never what I said. But funnily enough, from what you said, none of that experience matters indeed because we’re more talking about perception here. You even said so yourself of how you held stuff in real life and whatnot of what you enjoy and like, not of the internet. Your experience more supports my case, not yours when your focus on this thread is about of the internet.

Still no answer? No examples basically means you’re complaining with wishful thinking. Plenty of players find competitiveness in HotS (you don’t need me to assure you that is a fact). You may not like that kind of competitiveness (that’s perfectly fine), but your word is not law here nor to anyone who wants to find competitiveness anywhere they want.

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At some point dude, you just have to admit that you are a shut in weirdo.

:man_shrugging:

:v:

99

You know what they say about ad hominem. That’s a clear sign of defeat :laughing:. If you don’t like that framing, clear sign of ‘I have no refute’. That’s fine by me.

Logic is too ez.

100

It’s not an ad hominem if it’s true though.
:crazy_face: