I like the analogy. And yes, you are right, complexity does not equal depth. I think this game could use a little of both actually, and no I am not talking about items.
Okay so we should avoid any additional complexity because it will be to much for stupid / new players to handle. Is that what you are saying? So by that logic there are less stupid people in DOTA / LOL then right? Nope. They are everywhere, in every game at all ranks. Its something that cannot be avoided regardless of game mechanics. This concern / fear baffles me.
Well I can talk to other people can I ?.I can share my thoughts with other guests here if you werenât so offensive at the first place I might have listened to your constructive criticisms.
Artifacts were designed to provide you with a meaningful way to spend gold, while also providing additional options to customize your heroes. We wanted to test artifacts in the Alpha to find out if the system fulfilled those goals. As testing began, many of you voiced concerns around fairness issues, âcorrect buildâ issues, balance, new player tension, and other issues that made it clear that artifacts werenât working as intended. We agreeâthose issues started to outweigh the benefits of the system.
As a result, we have decided to remove the artifact system from Heroes of the Storm with a patch scheduled for later today. We will explore different ways to give you fun and compelling options for spending gold, while avoiding the problems that the initial artifact system created. We donât have any updates on what our future systems may be, but weâll be sure to keep you informed and look forward to getting your feedback on alternate systems.
Yes, there are the same idiots there. BUT LoL/Dota tells you what you do, it is less complex than HotS in that regard.
Which hero goes where? The game got you covered.
What to do? Easy, you go to the lane and lasthit. Same as usual.
Not sure what to buy? Just check the recommended build for your hero, available in the shop.
Dota is a more free in that regard I believe, not really sure, been awhile since I last checked it. Anyway, Dota has many layers of complexity just for the sake of complexity so it is kinda weird anyway imo.
But what is true for both LoL and Dota is that you basically always know what to do. The skill in those games is the execution of said actions.
Hardest role in those games is jungler for a reason - keeping track on camp timers, watching all 3 lanes and planing which one needs help, adjusting jungling route because depending on it, keeping track of enemy jungler, etc etc. Jungler needs good makro play.
HotS is similar to being a jungler in LoL/Dota in that regard - most of the skill in HotS is what to do. Ofc there are differences in how well you do those actions, but macro play is much more important than micro play.
Dota and LoL has just as many idiots but usually they know what to do because the game directly tells them what it is they have to do. That and they themselves suffer the consequences of bad play (like not farming and being underleveled/undergeared later).
Success in HotS is a team effort and many times (especially lower ranks) everyone has different opinions on what to do. It is better when everyone is on the same page and knows what to do, what not to do etc. like it usually is the case in high master gameplay.
Anyway, Iâm not a friend of adding complexity just for the sake of adding complexity. That being said I have no problem with learning an extra layer of complexity as I understand the game and am way out of the MMR range of those people, who donât understand the game. I donât think an extra layer would affect me much in any case.
But the thing is - I know most people are still overwhelmed by what HotS has to offer now. They still struggle with super easy to grasp concepts since about 4 years now.
On the other hand, maybe an extra layer would encourage more people to improve their gameplay, idk.
Well if you stayed hoping items would be added youâd just be disappointed. And from my point of view, the way most players keep making so many displays and think they should just fight all the time shows that the game is more complex than they think.
This game has a lot of maps, with different objectives, and different heroes being good or bad at different things. But you can create comps where those heroes become good.
I donât think thatâs the case in Storm league anymore. (And Iâm really tired of being the banner every game)
HOTS was supposed to be a dumbed down version of DOTA and LOL so that the wide range of audience and player base is able to understand the game.
If most people still struggle with understanding these basic dumbed down version of DOTA and LOL, adding another level of complexity is going to make their brains hurt even more.
The funny thing is LoL and DoTA2 completely dwarfed HoTS in term of players. I guess there are a lot of players out there would prefer a âdepthâ or âcomplexityâ than a dumbed down game.
you want the game to hve more complexity and many of the player base dont understand the status effect like what blind do and they pick butcher vs lili or things about the heroes like basic or talents stacks and how you should avoid them and many other simple things people dont understand
for me i prefare talents over items because the talents are made to fit the hero unlike the items who can work for every hero and add only bonus stats like health armor movement speed âŚ
the talents add something unique to the heroes and sometimes they change the abilites and the gameplay of the hero
There was a quote from Ghostcrawler, a former WoW developer who moved to riot to work in LoL. When he first started working on LoL he was shocked at the fanbasesâ willingness to learn a complicated system.
It was complex at first, but ppl tried out things, did the math, and made guides and now there is usually one âbestâ for every Hero, so itâs not really complex to go to a website and check for the best combos (which is usually negating weaknesses or boosting the main strengths).
Talents are more than enough.
You want complexity? Complexity is in tactics and strategy and not in grinding and shopping.
HotS also has a ton of maps, like other MOBAs have one, thereâs complexity. Different maps, different strategies.
So no need for this suggestion.
Plus I wonder if youâre GM or not to think that this game is not compelx enough. Because imo at first ppl should prove that they mastered everything before they say we should up the difficulty.
Great ideas, except the devs are doing everything they can to take complexity OUT of the game. Hero rewords tend to lower the learning curve, and make play near brian dead.
Toxic chat is part of online gaming. Itâs sad that HoTs even tries to monitor it, rather than just letting people mute. Again, itâs a sign that HoTs just isnât interested in a competitive game.
Like their other titles, Blizz is trying to do âMOBAâ for everyone, or MOBA light. Look at magic/hearthstone. Blizz thinks of this nieche as being the most profitable, so thatâs where they drive everything.
HOTS doesnât need more complexity. Macro and teamplay already matter more than in any other major Moba. The average Moba player sucks at HOTS as is because they arenât used to improving their macro play nor actually playing with their team.
Trying to add even MORE complexity is just going to make the game even worse. Now the average player, who already sucks at improving their Macro and refuses to play with the team, is going to struggle with yet ANOTHER mechanic that increases the skill gap between players even further. What the game needs is a better punishment system that actually suspends people for afk/feeding/refusal to participate and dev tools that teach players Macro and Teamwork.
I like the assertion with no proof. People from other MoBAs might focus on the wrong things, but fail, come on . . . most HoTs players are completely clueless. Any experience elsewhere has to help a ton.
HoTs players struggle with very very obvious mechanics. . . what does that tell you? That HoTs is complex enough, or that your average HoTs player is just plain bad?
Agreed . . . thier âmacro playâ lol. If by this you mean rotating to fights and doing objs, that isntâ very complex, and most HoTs players wonât even do that.
iâm not sure whatâs BS. HOTSâ reliance on team mechanics (shared exp as an example) means you canât 1v5 because you got fed. This requires you to play with your team more than any other Moba. Macro play is also more important than in other Mobas because the overall game state matters more than being able to perfectly use your abilities and 1v3. Knowing when to get camps, how/when to rotate, when to invade enemy camps, when to turn in objective on certain maps, etc are often MUCH more important than landing your abilities perfectly. Unless you believe the average player is GOOD at macro and playing with their team, which we know is false due to the large amount of players who are silver/gold.
Macro play is anything that affects the overall game state. Rotating properly/to the proper lane, ganking at the right time, taking camps at the right time, pushing at the right time, doing obj at the right time, understanding that losing a particular objective can be worth it if youâre able to take a fort or keep, etc.
Because of HOTSâ nature as a team game with shared exp, inclusions of game altering objectives (like curses on Cursed Hollow) and no âI got fed so i can 1v3 easily!â mechanics, Macro play matters a lot more than micro play. Teamwork is also extra important since you canât just 1v3 via the power of raw stats.
I do not see the point in balancing around the lowest denominator. Yes, we have some really bad players in this game. But that lies true with every single moba. The only difference is that we have to play with our baddies more so than the other games since our population is low.
If we dont fix the population issue somehow nothing will change, and if it does change it will be for the worse. Only way that will happen is with changes.
When I talk about complexity / depth which this game sorely needs, are you guys expecting some algebra problems before your allowed to start the game or something? Maybe a dissertation before every game? Chaos math? What is the issue here.
When people are talking about these âhugeâ issues for the noob playerbase, I am starting to think they are talking about themselves, and how they dont want this game to be any more complicated because of personal reasons. Mind boggling.
Why are people so scared of additional complexity? Are your small brains unable to handle it? How about depth? Why not give ample reasons for the for the âproâ another way to use their brains and strategize / use tactics? Is that really a bad thing?
If this game does not need anymore depth / complexity, then what does it need? It 100% needs something to bring player in and not drive them away. The game is dead in EU, and is on life support in NA. So what does it need? And saying it needs nothing is a lazy / stupid answer. Stop saying that.
![:wink:](https://d3rakab8gpdsa3.cloudfront.net/en/heroes/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
can I ?.I can share my thoughts with other guests here if you werenât so offensive at the first place I might have listened to your constructive criticisms.