CDC #13 Sarlac (Classic)

This is my concept for the 13th Community Design Contest “Cult / Classic”
(Link to the contest: CDC #13 - Cult/Classic )

Sarlac, King of the Ka’dra’suul

Contest entry info

Sarlac is the final boss in the classic SNES game Blackthorne. That game was published in 1994, so it meets the criteria for a “Classic” character.

Aspect

We don’t actually get to see him a lot in the game, but this is the gist of it:
https://horriblegames.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/sarlaac.jpg
https://blogjonstud.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/blackthorne_338557.jpg
Some people have said he looks similar to Diablo, so he might need to be slightly redesigned if that’s a problem

General Hero info

Class: Melee Assassin
Max HP: 2000 (~4.167 regen)
Resource: Mana (500 max MP)
Attack Speed: 1.11
Attack damage: 95
Mount: Normal

notes

His HP is on the high end for Melee Assassins, but considering he has no baseline sustain and almost no defensive Talent options, I think it’s OK.
His attack damage is on the lower end for Melee Assassins, but his attack speed is rather fast, and he’s kind of a mage-ish, so I didn’t want too much damage to come form AA’s.


Abilities:

D: Xandralite fuel
Passive: hitting an enemy Hero with a Basic Attack grants Sarlac 1 stack of Xandralite, up to a maximum of 20 stacks.

Active:
self cast; 30 sec cooldown; no mana cost, but spend all stacks of Xandralite.

For 10 seconds, ability cooldowns refresh 2% faster per stack spent; doesn’t affect the cooldown of Xandralite fuel

Explanation

The idea is that Sarlac’s abilities have a slightly too long cooldown for the punch they pack, but the Trait makes them have a slightly shorter cooldown than would normally be expected of such an ability (if used at full stacks), giving Sarlac a burst of power.

The point is that it’s important for him to use both abilities and basic attacks for maximum value.

lore explanation

In the original game (or rather, its manual :stuck_out_tongue: ), Xandralite was a special metal that radiated energy, used as a fuel source by both of the kingdoms involved.
Sarlac wanting to steal the Androthi’s supply of Xandralite for the Ka’dra’suul was the whole reason for the conflict in the game.

Q: Flaming Punch
directional cone; 10 sec cooldown; 35 mana

Attack in a small cone in front of Sarlac, dealing medium damage and knocking enemies slightly away from him.

Enemy Heroes hit by this ability are marked with Sarlac’s Flame for 4 seconds

Passive:
Sarlac has 25% increased movement speed when moving towards an enemy marked with Sarlac’s Flame.

Explanation

While it might seem odd for a Melee Assassin to push targets away, the shove is very small, and meant more to interrupt enemies channeling, and the like, plus it helps give Shadow Warp slightly more versatility (see below).

The effect of Sarlac’s Flame alloes him to be sticky and keep landing Basic Attacks (it’s the same movement speed bonus as Samuro or TB Varian, but only works on marked enemies like Butcher’s “Insatiable Blade” talent).

W: Shadow Warp
ground target; 12 sec charge cooldown; 50 mana; Hold 2 charges

Sarlac becomes a shadow, losing unit collision and rapidly charging to a designated location.

After the Warp, Sarlac casts a free (untalented) Flaming Punch, aimed toward the location where he was before warping.

Can’t warp through impassable terrain

Explanation

This is Sarlac’s main way of being sticky other than Sarlac’s Flame (sticky-ness is an important aspect for a Melee Assassin).

Note that, because Sarlac’s Flame is a baseline feature of Flaming Punch, the free cast here does apply it, despite being untalented.

Rather than helping him chase, it works by stopping the enemy from escaping, body blocking them and (if the free Q hits) pushing them back into the frey a little.

I can also be used for an escape/disengage, warping away from the battle and shoving pursuers away, but because the free Q is not optional, it forces Sarlac to sop for a moment after warping, so that this ability doesn’t make him hypermobile.

However, the idea is more to use this in order to “go Dragon Ball Z on their asses”: hit them with Q, warp behind and hit them with the free Q, repeat with second charge of W

E: Lightning Hunter
Point and click; 16 sec cooldown; 60 mana

A warning circle appears at the location of the targeted enemy; after a short delay, the area is hit by lightning, causing heavy damage to the target, and medium damage to other enemies.

This repeats a total of 3 times, with a short delay between each attack.

Explanation

By automatically re-targeting, this ability forces the enemy to keep moving in order to avoid it’s potentially huge damage, sort of like a Basic Ability version of Artanis’ Purifier Beam.

The AoE is small, and the delay long enough that a hero moving at normal speed can avoid it completely (again, like Artanis’ laser)

This meshes a little with Shadow Warp, as he can warp ahead of the enemy and body block them to get a hit in (the damage is only “huge” if all three strikes connect)

This also makes it really dangerous to stay in one place while fighting Sarlac (which was already a bad idea because it lets him get in more Basic Attacks and benefit from his Trait)

If this ability would make it too easy for Sarlac to merc, it could be changed to only target enemy heroes

R1: Guardian Gargoyle
Vector targeting; 50 sec cooldown; 50 mana

Summon a destructible stone Gargoyle in a pedestal that blocks pathing.
(use vector targetting to decide the position of the Gargoyle and the direction it faces)

For its duration, the Gargoyle periodically spits fire, dealing damage to enemies in a small area in front of it.

The pedestal and the attack area are roughly the same size… Something like this https://imgur.com/a/UnRgeZa

Explanation

A smaller and destructible version of Tassadar’s wall (well, IDK if that one was made smaller with his rework)

Its main use is to block chokepoints so Sarlac can get in close, but because it also attacks, it makes Sarlac even more effective against stationary enemies like Ragnaros in Molten Core or Hammer in Siege Mode. (or NPC’s, like objectives and bosses)

Original game comments

In Blackthorne, the Gargoyles were avobe the room where you fought Sarlac, so they didn’t block your movement, but I tought doing it like this would make the ability more interesting, or at least more versatile.

R2: Flaming Bomb
Linear skillshot; 30 sec cooldown; 50 mana

Launch a fireball in the target direction, if the fireball hits an enemy or impassable terrain, it explodes in a circular area.

Enemies caught in the explosion are damaged and otherwise affected as if they were hit with Flaming Punch (being pushed away from the center of the circle); this effect benefits from all Flaming Punch Talents Sarlac has enough level to pick, even if Sarlac picked something else.

if the fireball impacts an enemy, it deals bonus damage to that target (in addition to damage from the explosion)

Explanation

This one can more realistically be used agaisnt enemy heroes who won’t just stand there and let the Gargoyle cook them.

It can be dodged, but if the enemy is close to walls, it can be tricky to completely avoid it, so the idea is to shoot it at an angle to land on a wall or minion to the side of your target, stopping them from fleeing (except straight back), and marking them with Sarlac’s Flame so you can engage more easily.

And if the enemy is rooted or something, this can be used to just make your “DBZ combo” even longer.

Original game comments

Sarlac did use a move like this in Blackthorne, where you could dodge the fireball the same way you would normally dodge enemy shots, but if you were too close to the wall, it would explode and hit you anyway.


Talents:

Tier 1 (level 1):

  • (D) Fuel Overcharge

(!) Quest: Hitting Heroes with Basic Attacks increases the duration of Xandralite Fuel by 0.25 seconds, and Takedowns increase it by 1 second, up to a maximum of 5 seconds.

(!) Reward: after reaching 5 seconds, the cooldown of Xandralite Fuel is reduced by 5 seconds.

  • (D) Xandralite Armor

Xandralite Fuel also grants a shield for its duration, worth ~2% of Sarlac’s maximum HP per stack spent

  • (D) Fuel the Flame

While the effect of Xandralite Fuel is active, Sarlac gains 1% Spell Power per stack spent, and every third basic attack agains Heroes marked with Sarlac’s Flame grants an additional Xandralite stack.

Tier 2 (level 4):

  • (Q) Long Reach of the King

The radius of Flaming Punch’s cone is increased by 30%.

Enemies hit in the extended range don’t get knocked back.

In addition, the duration of Sarlac’s Flame marks from Flaming Punch is increased by 2 seconds (from 3 to 5).

  • (W) Shadow Claw

Shadow Warp now deals damage to enemies it passes through.

Enemies damaged by this are marked with Sarlac’s Flame for 3 seconds

  • (E) Lightning Blast

The radius of Lightning Hunter is increased by 33%, but its delay is also increased. (just enough so that it’s still possible to avoid it by walking at 100% speed)

In addition, Lightning Hunter deals 50% additional damage to enemies in the center, and applies a mark of Sarlac’s Flame to them for 3 seconds.

Tier 3 (level 7):

  • (Q) Enduring Flame

After hitting an enemy Hero with Flaming Punch, a pool of flame remains (in the same cone area the ability covered), dealing moderate damage to enemies who remain there.

In addition, Sarlac’s next 2 Basic Attacks within 5 seconds deal bonus Spell Damage equal to 50% of his normal Basic Attack damage.

  • (W) Shadow Hunter

Shadow Warp casts a single strike of Lightning Hunter at Sarlac’s location before warping, and another one at the destination after the warp.

  • (E) Relentless Hunter

If Lightning Hunter hits the targeted enemy Hero with at least one of its attacks, it repeats an additional two times (for a total of 5 “attempts”)

Can only trigger once per cast.

Tier 4 (level 10):

  • (R1) Guardian Gargoyle

  • (R2) Flaming Bomb

See description in “Abilities” section above

Tier 5 (level 13):

  • (Q) Flaming Vitality

Whenever Sarlac aplies Sarlac’s Flame to an enmy who’s already marked, Sarlac regains 5% of his maximum HP and MP

  • (Q) Relentless Battering

Hitting an enemy Hero with Basic Attacks while he’s marked with Sarlac’s Flame deals bonus damage and increases the mark duration by 0.75 seconds

  • (W) Fade into Shadow

Sarlac gains Evasion while charging with Shadow Warp, and for 2 seconds after

Tier 6 (level 17):

  • (Q) Combo Strike

Flaming Punch gains a second charge, but its cooldown is increased by 4 seconds.

In addition, while Sarlac has the movement speed boost from Sarlac’s Flame, he also gains a 15% attack speed boost.

  • (W) Impenetrable Darkness

Shadow Warp leaves behind a shadowy image of Sarlac that body-blocks enemies.

The image mirrors Sarlac’s free Flaming Punch for 50% damage, and disappears 1 second after.

The image doesn’t move, or make any other actions (except for the free Q).

  • (E) Lightning Rod

Casting Lightning Hunter on an enemy Hero also casts a free one targeted on Sarlac.

Tier 7 (level 20):

  • (R1) Gargoyle Hound

Guardian Gargoyle loses its pedestal and grows in size (so that it has the same collision size), gaining 30 Physical Armor and becoming animated:

While the Gargoyle is active, it can be reactivated to order it to charge to a target location near it, damaging enemies in its path and knocking them aside.

This effect has an 8 second cooldown

  • (R2) Bombardment

Flaming Bomb now pierces through enemies, but will only explode on the first enemy impacted.

In addition, it gains a second charge (charges cooldown independently)

Note: this doesn’t allow Flaming Bomb to pass through walls, but the missile can explode twice: once on the first enemy hit, and once more if it hits a wall behind them.

  • (D) Power of the Darkstone

Upgrade Xandralite Fuel to Darkstone Fuel, increasing maximum stacks by 5, gaining the benefits of all tier 1 Talents, and instantly completing the Fuel Overcharge Quest.

  • (Q) Cursed Flame

Reapplying Sarlac’s Flame to an enemy Hero who is already marked reduces that Hero’s Spell Power by 5 for the duration of the Mark.

This effect can stack up to 4 times (-20 Spell Power)

  • (E) Storm Hunter

Active Ability - no Mana cost; 60 sec cooldown

Passive: Whenever Lightning Hunter hits the target enemy hero, it refreshes the cooldown of this ability by 1 second

Active: Cast a free (untalented) Lightning Hunter on every enemy Hero in a wide area around Sarlac.

The Heroes must be visible to Sarlac and be valid targets for Lightning Hunter to begin with (so heroes in Stealth, Invulnerable, Stasis, etc. aren’t affected)


Extras:

Taunt

In the original game, the main enemies would laugh at you whenever they hit you, and IIRC Sarlac did the same. That would be his taunt.

(couldn’t find a video of Sarlac doing it, because apparently any youtube video showing Sarlac has to be a no damage run :confused:, but here’s one of the regular enemies:
https://youtu.be/99F1lPHBWbM?t=228 )

Skins

Heavyweight Sarlac:

Once a boxing champion, Sarlac was completely discredited after it came to light that he was using a high-tech steroid known as “Darkstonine” to get the edge over his opponents. Now he works as an enforcer-for-hire in the grimy underside of New Tirisfall.

A skin set in the same Noir-style universe as the Scarlet Heist event, but with looks more resembling Kharazim’s “Dropkick” skin from Nexomania.
Basically, Sarlac wears boxers and gloves. Maybe one of the tints has a big scar across the chest, as a reference to a classic from a different franchise :wink:

Abominable Sarlac:

Legends tell of a sorcerer who was so depraved, his visage changed to reflect his inner corruption. Now he lurks in the snowy peaks, abducting lost travelers for his deranged experiments.

Probably a Fall Event / Halloween skin; Instead of the normal red and fiery, he looks white (in the default tint) and furry, but keeps his big black horns, like the “wendigo” in Warcraft. Importantly, one of the tints is a deep blue :stuck_out_tongue: (again for reference sake)

Tactics

Good against:
Enemies who tend to remain stationary, such as Sgt. Hammer or Chen, make for an easy targer for Lightning Hunter.

The large ammounts of displacements Sarlac has access to can also be effective at interrupting Heroes with long channels, such as Whitemane.

Works well with:
Because Sarlac can easily deal high amounts of damage to stationary targets, heroes who can reliably root or significantly slow enemies are good to have around.

Xul’s Bone Prison in particular can make it easy to time Lightning Hunter to coincide with the root, thanks to its long warning, thus somewhat turning a weakness of both abilities into a strength.

Furthermore, Sarlac’s ability to body-block the enemy to prevent their escape (rather than the more common styles of chasing) can make for a powerful combination when paired with a Hero who can deal sustained damage but isn’t that great at chasing, such as Gul’Dan or (new) Tassadar.

Struggles against:
Because Sarlac needs to hit enemies with Basic Attacks to maximize his effectiveness, Heroes with Blinds, such as Li Li or Cassia, can cripple him.

Also, he has a hard time being a threat to heroes with Evasion, like Illidan, or who can remove the Sarlac’s Flame marks from themselves, like Samuro (with his dumb “swapping positions with a Clone removes all amrks so you can’t tell the real one from them” mechanic).

Works poorly with:
Sarlac’s need to land Basic Attacks means he can be easily hindered by Heroes who crowd around enemies, such as Samuro with his Clones and Nazeebo with Zombie Wall (though the latter can also be a boon by holding enemies still to be hit with Lightning Hunter).

Also, though the displacement of his Flaming Punch isn’t huge, it can still be problematic for allies with narrow skillshots, such as Nova or Orphea, because of the relatively frequent movement of the enemy.

3 Likes

20/20

Creativity: 5/5
Nothing stands out as basic or bland. :smiley:

Cohesiveness: 5/5
Everything makes sense with eachother and notthing really conflicts. I will say tho, your gonna have a hard time not making a Q build the obvious
choice in your talents. I know W dosnet do talented Qs but Flaming Bomb does (or atleast its worded like it does).

Thematic: 5/5
all this stuff happens in his fight and all the stuff that dosent works just fine.

Interaction: 5/5
I think it might be better to have shadow warp cast flaming punch on the nearest enemy in range and have some indicators to show where the dash is going. Not enough to warrent loseing points for tho.

well that was easy, nice max score : p

Awesome!:smiley: And here I was worried about lowering the average :sweat_smile: (well, I still have 2 chances for that :stuck_out_tongue:)

Yeah, I honestly didn’t even think about build diversity :sweat_smile:.
Like I mentioned in the explanation for Flaming Bomb, I decided to let it benefit from Q talents because otherwise it would have been an

incredibly bland heroic.

On launch, Morales’ grenade exploded on impact (instead of reactivating to detonate like now), so this would have been “that, but it’s a heroic”. Well, the explosion is larger, but my point still stands on how lame that would be.

Maybe I’ll change that for another interesting mechanic, if I can come up with one.

Well, the reason I have him punch even if there’s nobody in range is so that the ability doesn’t become a

"get out of jail free card"

It doesn’t give him unstoppable, so it can still be countered when used offensively (like Artanis’ Blade Dash, which bad players like myself use recklessly, then get CC’d, and are suddenly helpless in the middle of 3 or 4 enemies).

But based on what I’ve seen in the General Discussion forums, it seems the single most frustrating mechanic in this game (for many players) is not something that kills you wihtout warning (like old Chromie), but simply something that allows enemies to escape easily (Genji, Tracer, even D.Va; they all got complaints because they “can strike with impunity”)

So to avoid that, I gave it the forced delay (though the shove component can still let him dislodge a melee, so it’s not completely useless as an escape, either)
Also, IIRC Sarlac in the original game would always warp behind the player or to an edge of the arena, so he (incidentally) always punches “back” after a warp :stuck_out_tongue:
Still, I’ll clarify that it shows an indicator for better counterplay.

I’m already working on Talents, and will add them when I get the chance (gotta grade some tests IRL first, though)

I don’t think it mechanically needs to change to much.

He could still attempt to hit nothing. It wasnt really a big issue to begin with tho. Was mostly trying to offer SOMETHING helpful :stuck_out_tongue:

Edited in Talents, though I’m still thinking of another Storm talent option ('cause it’s kinda lame if he only gets the heroic upgrade and one more… Like Zagara :stuck_out_tongue:)

EDIT: added a 4th Storm Talent. It’s not super-amazing, but at least it’s better than the custom Mercenary Lord at lv 1 :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like

Total Score - 17/20

Creativity - 4/5
Starting with the base kit, I’m kind of torn on Creativity. Flaming Punch is very basic and Shadow Warp feels lazy since it’s just a variant of Flaming Punch, but together they do create an entertaining and flashy playstyle/combo. Lightning Hunter also feels quite basic and bland, but the way it works (especially with the other two abilities) can create interesting gameplay loops and strategy. Xandralite Fuel is also very basic, and while it doesn’t play into interesting decision making or playstyles like the basic abilities, it does fuel them so I think it’s fine. Guardian Gargoyle is much blander and feels like it plays less into the playstyle, though I do appreciate it blocking off escape paths from Lightning Hunter and that Sarlac can Flamping Punch people into its fire breath, so again I’m not happy with it from a base level but I like it better with the overall kit. Flaming Bomb feels like the worst out of the bunch because it’s derivative of Flaming Punch yet again, and I don’t see it flowing into any of Sarlac’s overlal playstyle and decision making.

I feel a little better about talents overall, though. Starting with the negative parts: Might of the Ka’dra’suul is horridly boring as a passive pushing tool; Warped Form is very interesting but also feels weird and probably not worth a talent slot; and a lot of Xandralite Fuel talents just feel boring and not very impactful (Xandralite Armor, Xandralite Vitality are just meh, while Fuel Overcharge and Fuel the Flame are better but not great). On to the good, Tier 6 is just really great overall - every talent adds more spice and an interesting new dimension to Sarlac’s abilities. Just to round things out, most talents I didn’t mention specifically are fine - most feel like they make Sarlac better at what he already does (Shadow Claw gives him more free damage when he combos people with Shadow Warp, Relentless Hunter just makes Lightning Hunter better at what it already does with more pressure and potential damage for using the ability the same way, Enduring Flame gives Sarlac more damage while he combos enemies between Flaming Punches/Shadow Warps with Lightning Hunter up). I would like to see a lot of these talents have more variety and conditionals, and offer new tools for Sarlac to consider like the Tier 6 talents do instead of just making his current tools better at what they already do.

To conclude, I feel an immediate hit to Creativity because of how one-dimensional the basic abilities are at first glance, especially with Shadow Warp being a more interesting variant of Flaming Punch, but the way that these generally boring abilities really play together in an interesting style with some skill potential raises that up quite a bit. Talents are near the same level, with Tier 6 making me much more enthusiastic about the kit as a whole but many other talents just being standard or a little below.

Cohesiveness - 3/5
I’ve said plenty about what I think about the base kit already, but I see an additional problem in the area of cohesion. Specifically, Sarlac’s ability to consistently basic attack enemies to build up the substantial amount of Xandralite Fuel he needs to get good CDR is very lacking and not supported anywhere else in his kit. Both Flaming Punch and Shadow Warp move enemies away from him, countering his intended basic attack playstyle, and Lightning Hunter does nothing to help Sarlac catch up to the enemies he’s thrown away and even encourages them to run away more. I think that to amend this, you should consider either merging Flaming Punch with Shadow Warp (seeing as how Shadow Warp casts Flaming Punch already, you can give him the option to punch point-blank or teleport first to punch behind him; I believe this could also help out your Creativity score going forward) and giving him a new ability that plays into the basic attack style, or adding a condition to Flaming Punch/Shadow Warp baseline similar to the Combo Strike talent so that Sarlac can get more basic attacks in while doing his combos. As he is now, I think Sarlac’s ability playstyle is very cohesive and generally great, but his trait is stranded, with the rest of his kit making it harder to stick to enemies and land the needed basic attacks.

Also, a side note that I didn’t want to fit in the block above: Flaming Bomb having direct synergy with all Flaming Punch talents feels like a mistake that limits Sarlac’s build options. Flaming Bomb will always feel like a subpar heroic in any build except for a Flaming Punch build, while Guardian Gargoyle is exactly as effective regardless of Sarlac’s other talent choices. I would advise removing the Flaming Punch talent synergy, and possibly looking into other ways you can add more interesting effects to have it feel less like Pyroblast but a skillshot.

On to talents, Sarlac’s build options feel very limited and hurt quite a bit. Xandralite Fuel talents want to make Sarlac better while he is basic attacking, but as previously stated his basic attack playstyle is stranded and lacks support - even in talents, as Combo Strike is the only talent that starts to help Sarlac stick to targets to land basic attacks and Enduring Flame is the only talent that makes his basic attacks better (while also making his abilities better, so it’s not really a basic attack build talent). Otherwise, Tiers 2, 3, and 6 are just raw damage tiers (excluding the Fade into Shadow talent), and outside of Tier 6, they all play into Sarlac’s existing gameplay loop without adding anything new. The best talent synergies/builds are just making one ability stronger than the others, which doesn’t feel like it means much when all of the abilities will still function in Sarlac’s combo the exact same way and all that’s being added is more damage. Lastly, the Xandralite Fuel talents and others on their tiers don’t feel like they push any specific playstyle; there are two sustain/survivability ones, but Sarlac doesn’t have overall build paths to make use of them.

In conclusion, I think that cohesion starts strong in the base kit with the basic abilities’ playstyle (Guardian Gargoyle also benefits from this, though Flaming Bomb feels a little left out), but Xandralite Fuel’s basic attack focus being stranded and unsupported in both the base kit and talents stops it from being perfect. Cohesion falls further with talent builds not feeling meaningful to Sarlac’s playstyle (outside of Tier 6) and mostly just making one of the abilities in his combo a bit stronger.

Thematic - 5/5
With my limited knowledge, everything about this sounds in theme for Sarlac. As for contest theme, he definitely qualifies as a Classic character. Full points here.

Interaction - 5/5
Even though I’m giving full points for Interaction, there’s a couple of things that I’m wary of. First, Sarlac is very damage-focused, with lots of raw damage in his base kit paired with very little CC or utility plus quite a few talent tiers dedicated fully to increasing that damage. I think you’re saved from this becoming a problem by Tiers 1 and 5 themselves having more to do with utility and sustain overall. Second, Sarlac’s chain Flaming Punch/Shadow Warp combo could be inescapable and frustrating with the frequent knockbacks. However, I think that the ability cooldowns are long enough and the CC is light enough that this also doesn’t become a problem.

Thanks for the feedback!
I agree with most of what you said (Especially with "Might of the Ka’dra’suul being bad :stuck_out_tongue: ), and I admit the parts I don’t agree with are more personal preference, but here are some comments anyway:

I feel like you (and other designers and CDC judges I’ve read) like your Talents a little too complex. As an aspiring game designer IRL, I feel there’s a certain need to keep things simple. (sorry about incoming text wall)

In the game design literature, there’s a problem called “complexity creep”, similar to “power creep”, but with things having more and more mechanics attached as a game gets add-ons, until the game starts getting really convoluted. (Magic: the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons, and other board games are especially infamous for this)
I did get a bit of an issue with this myself in a previous CDC (the “rebirth” one, with my Teron Gorefiend cocept), where the judges docked points because I ended up making the Trait too “interesting”.

Personally, I feel Heroes of the Storm is already having a bit of a “Complexity Creep” problem. DW and new Tass have traits with several effects, for example, and Tass’ Talents have like three paragraphs of text sometimes.
I’m a believer in the old saying in engineering that a design is perfect not when you can’t add more features, but when there’s nothing you can remove without the product suffering for it.

I did try to make Talents more interesting than just plain number increases, but I guess I should see if I can spice them up a little, anyway. (honestly, I made all the talents on friday, because I was too busy before, so I didn’t have too much time to iterate).

Yeah, I wanted that combo mechanic, so I added the little shove so your opponent wouldn’t simply walk away mid-combo, but it did limit me in what I could do utility-wise.
For example, I was thinking of a “concusion… something” talent that would give Flaming Punch a slow, but that might have been too dangerous given how Lightning Hunter works. Things like that.

So I ended up leaving at “there’s this awesome combo you can pull off if you’ve got the skill”, and hoping that it’s unreliable enough that it woun’t be too frustrating… sort of like Kel’Thuzad, or at least that was the idea.

The awesome combo
  • pick Shadow Claw at Tier 2, Enduring Flame at Tier 3, Flaming Bomb Heroic, Combo Strike at Tier 6, and Bombardment at Storm.
  • When your enemy is close enough to a wall, initiate with Q to get him even closer.
  • Follow up with R, which pushes him further into the wall, goes through him, and explodes in the wall, pushing him away from it
  • Go W (since there’s a space btween the enemy and the wall now), you damage the enemy going through them, and then hit them with the free Q
  • W again, so you’re oppsite the wall, and so that you push him back to standing in the fires left by Q and R with Enduring Flame
  • Second Q charge, then second R charge

If you can weave AAs with Combo Strike (without losing the enemy), and cast E just before the first R (so the enemy gets hit by multiple Lightning strikes 'cause you’re keeping him in the same general area by pushing him back and forth), you can deal massive ammounts of damage, and bounce them around almost worse than Wandering Keg :laughing:

This also falls under “try to spice up the Talents”, I suppose (but you can see why it’s a little harder)

Yeah, I’ll have to see how I patch up the “dissonance” of him being a melee that pushes people away.
I guess the easy way would be to make him ranged, but I’ll have to think over it.

2 Likes

Hey Efede! Just want to pose a few responses:

No worries about the “text wall”, I tend to be very wordy so I have no grounds to complain. As for your statement, I definitely get where you’re coming from. Last CDC, I think I went too hard for complex talents and hurt people’s scores too much over it. Moving forward, I wanted to be more balanced for people who like things simple but deep, and people who like things fairly complex. I tried to do that this time around, and hope that I was fair in that and you don’t feel like your score dropped because of my personal biases.

As for the quality of your talents, I did emphasize that there are simple talents that were still very interesting. All of the Tier 6 talents added new dimensions and uses to Sarlac’s basic abilities, and were I think fairly simple overall (ranging from 1-3 short sentences, and with 1-2 straightforward mechanics). I don’t think all talents need to be like that, and there’s definitely places for simpler ones that just make an ability better at what it does. I just think there should be more of a balance, since complex talents are great for defining builds while simpler ones support them and fill them out.

I think that the Combo Strike talent was a great start for patching this up, but it only starts to fix the problem at Level 16. My personal approach would probably be to combine Flaming Punch and Shadow Warp (as I explained in the review, they feel close since Shadow Warp just casts Flaming Punch for free) using a targeting scheme where casting it point-blank just punches, but casting it far away warps and reverse-punches. This frees up an ability slot that can be used to give Sarlac more sticking power.

Otherwise, like I said Combo Strike had a good idea for fixing it, and something else could definitely be added to the trait. I could see him having a playstyle of sustained damage through basic attacks, and using his combo as a finisher; then, he has the Xandralite Fuel to charge his next combo quicker while he goes for the next target. This would just require more basic attack support in his base kit or talents, making it feel more like basic attacks are part of his core identity instead of an unsupported thing you do on the side to empower his core identity.

Either way, I personally don’t want to see Sarlac go ranged. I don’t know much about his identity (never played Blackthorne), but from what I get from him in your design, melee just feels right for Sarlac.

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If its any consolation, I absolutely agree with philosophy and is something I look for when I judge things and make concepts of my own. Its something I will give and take points for.

I think people often under appreciate how fun a simple auto attack reset or an odd projectile can be. Personally I think the best abilities have only 1 or 2 moving parts and and try to get as much out of those components as possible. 3 is fine if every ability isn’t like that and 4 is just pushing it way to far. Some of my favorite abilities in all of hots are fairly simple. Whitemanes zeal, Sam’s crit strike, and Lucio wall ride all feel really good to use.

A lot of people (me included) think anduin is one of the best designed heroes in the entire game even though divine star and his 16 talents are the only things really have all that much going on. Q is literally just “heal target” and E is just “root someone”. To me, Divine star has 3 components; going out does damage, coming back heals, and hitting more enemies heals more.

Looking at your kit, Lightning hunter and its interactions are probably my favorite. By its self, its got a few neat moving parts but game play wise you just click on someone and thats that. What makes it great in my opinion is Its interaction with Shadow Warp. You drop an E on someone and then try to predict how your target is gonna try and get out of it. Then you shadow warp in front of them and punch them back in to lightning hunter. this interaction is great. Theres things both parties can do every step of the way that can affect how successful your combo is. A similar interaction exists between E and R1. I almost wish there wernt so many entries so i could go this in depth with everything but oh well. Im glad everyone is having fun so far :stuck_out_tongue:

Its something that I actually really appreciate about your base kit. (especially after the last cdc I judged xp)

Something I wish i said in my initial review is that R2 dosent really interact with the rest of the base kit in any real capacity and talents dont help all that much either (theres even a slight amount of anti synergy). Its to late for me to take any points off so lucky break i guess : p

Anyway, thats all. Good luck on week 3!

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Reworked the base kit to give conditional movement speed, so basic attacking is viable, simmilar to other Melee Assassins.

Also added the description of the Taunt, and will add other fluff / extras during the day as I’m able

EDIT: added some numbers (which are probably horribly unbalanced, 'cause I’m not very good at intuiting what numbers mean in this game :sweat:) , and a couple of skins.

EDIT2: forgot to mention: I changed Flaming Bomb to gain benefits from Q Talents even if you don’t pick them, so it’s not a “exclusive to Q build” thing.

Overall Score
Creativity - 5/5
Cohesiveness - 4/5
Thematic - 5/5
Interaction - 5/5

Total - 19/20

Creativity - 5/5
Within the base kit, I do think that the character has a nice mix of interesting and unique abilities that offer him a lot of unique ways to combat enemies. Despite being a melee assassin, his abilities feel like they lend themselves nicely to a bruiser role, with the ability to bat around enemies and cause rather large disruption and punishment in the solo lane. I am in particular fond of Lightning Hunter, just as an ability. While the abilities feel disconnected, they all offer him ways to control the battlefield and are tied together neatly with his trait speeding up his gameplay loop effectively, which is nice to see. Both of the heroics also offer brand new effects to the game, and are probably more exciting than the basic abilities. Overall, solid base. The talents also offer a variety of interesting new tools to play with, and are mostly unique, with some simple supporting underliers. Some talents alter how the character is played into new and exciting playstyles, which is perfect. I’m a fan of the Taunt description, and the skins are both well described and interesting to ponder.

Cohesiveness - 4/5
The one falling of the concept is the cohesiveness, mainly centered around talents. The base kit is very loosely tied together, with the conditional knockbacks almost seeming to cause more harm to Lightning Hunter than benefit. The basic attack nature of the trait is the only real thing tying everything together, which is fine but precarious. The heroics offer different options, which is good. The talents have some set paths to take, but two main issues. The first main issue is that the sustain talents are scattered and largely disconnected from his built paths, leaving any build feeling contorted. Defensive talents are usually crucial for a melee assassin with no other defensive tools, and unnaturally polarize build paths. I would recommend grouping all of your defensive talents on a single tier. Secondly, I would love to see more internal interactions within the talents, especially focused around Sarlac’s Flame. Your Tier 2 is dedicated around it, but there are few other talents that really interact with the debuff. I think, since you require effect build to apply it in some way, that it should be more of a “build around” mechanic for your talent tree, which would naturally bring your abilities together more.

Thematic - 5/5
I’ve never played Blackthorne, so I am not super qualified to speak to this concept, but from the research I’ve done, this seems to capture many of the core attributes of his fight and his theme. His skins and taunt show care towards the original game, and I appreciate that work.

Interaction - 5/5
Whether in the base kit or the talents, I can’t find much to complain about here. The abilities all feel fair enough, and I don’t see any talents that largely produce any sorts of issues. My one and only complaint, though minor, is that Storm Hunter seems like it holds far too much game defining power within itself, being able to apply every talent Sarlac has collected and outputting immense damage potential and disruption all by itself, with only a 60 second cooldown. I think this should have a much larger cooldown, and reduce by more on successful strikes. In addition, I think the Lightning Hunters applies should probably be untalented, as this could apply Sarlac’s Flame to wide groups of enemies easily and with Flaming Vitality make him unkillable. I’m just concerned it does too much for making a build by itself right now that it pushes out any other build path.

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Thanks for the feedback!

Awesome! Better than I expected (again) :smiley:

So, in summary, change this and then…

Rework Talents (but this time with builds actually in mind :sweat_smile: )…

Some polish, and we’re good.

Did I miss anything important? :thinking:

I think you have everything handled. The concept has a lot going for it, and is much more unique than I remember it being when you first started. Just readjust the talent tree, specifically with the defensive talents in mind, and add more inter-ability cohesion and it should look good.

2 Likes

Hi. This is my Week 4 Review of your Concept as part of the Cult Penalty. I like how basic, but powerful your build was, so I don’t have much to say about it.

Trait: Interesting and I like the how each talent increases the use or implications of it.

Q: Basic, but powerful.

W: Its a neat ability with cool talents.

E: Essentially a skillshot, but offers room for isolation of a target or to scare away enemy heroes.

R1: It’s a cool idea and like how it’s basically between Leoric’s Tomb and KT’s Phoenix.

R2: Flaming Bomb is powerful in how it profits from Q, but it can be an issue of being too powerful from that.

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Great review.

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Forgot to update it.

So, I was planning to update my concept today, after grading some tests, but I had technical issues (I couldn’t open the files the students sent me 'cause the program that opens it just up and uninstalled itself for no reason :unamused:), and fixing it took longer than expected.

My point is, I’ll end up doing the Week 4 stuff tomorrow, and hope it can still be considered :confused:

At least it’s week 4, so my lack of commitment won’t penalize other people (in the worst case scenareo), 'cause the contest will be over :sweat:

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Don’t worry! The deadline is today(a day later), which is why I’m only slightly panicking about reviewing a concept instead of absolutely panicking. (^_^’)7

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Phew, that means I’m still in time :sweat_smile:

I moved the defensive Talents to one tier, like you suggested, but I don’t think I did anything to increase cohesion :confused:

I did try to allow an AA build, though. I wanted to add more effects to Sarlac’s Flame through Talents, but I was weary of slows or armor shred, because that might make it too easy (or too effective) to land several E strikes, or stuff.
So in the end I came up with Cursed Flame, and ended up putting it in the Storm Tier 'cause the other tiers already had AA or Sarlac’s Flame options :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

Efede - 98/100

Creativity: 10/10
Cohesiveness: 9/10
Thematic: 10/10
Interaction: 10/10

(+2 Thoughtfulness, +1 Game Fluidity)