I believe it could work, KTZ should just as well have his spell power scale linear with quest progression, rather than receive all of it at the end. I’m not sure how both these changes would affect the early game potential but they definitely would make me want to play these heroes more.
Even when talented it’s far from great.
Butch has no escape. Heroes with no escapes can’t double soak (against proper players).
yeah, even with the lvl1 talent chop meat, he has decent dmg against creep, the bigger problem is that drains his mana pretty quicly
exacly, i’ve tried to double soak with butcher many times with chop meat, but if i get ganked by a tank and any assasin im dead (proper players), if nobody comes in my help, so it forces to me to go the safe and longer route or take a risk
Butcher has no escape, yes, but he is also a bit tanky. So if enemys can gank him together, while he soaks exp, then where is The Butcher’s team in the meantime? For that gank they might get sth. else in exchange.
Good point. Looks like it is a teamplay issue, if enemys do ganks while the own team doesn’t help…
Could be solved with a buff that his Q gets mana back, if he uses it on minions, other heroes has it too.
well… personally i don’t think the biggest problem about butcher is his mana, i can just go back to core, or just tapping in a fount and get some globes and im full mana again… Yes, running out of mana can be quite annoying in long fights, there is always the option to pick invigoration allowing The Butcher to stay in the Battlefield much longer, but i dont think that is a big problem, because in a major fite or i kill in enemies in a few seconds, or i get killed in a few second, so long fights are not very common to me… and i play a lot him (i had an account, wiht a lvl 150 butcher before i got banned), and as I said before the biggest problem is the lack of power in the early game (he is like a puppy) and losing stacks on death (butcher puppy must be very afraid of dying)
Butcher is not tanky at all. His only selfheal is easily denyable when ganked and does nothing in the earlygame, because his AA dmg is too low yet, also it requires him to stay in danger.
For a Butcher you only need two Heroes. One Already lanes against him. So the rest of the team loses 1 Hero from the 4men, managable in most situations and in return the enemy loses:
- Butch Meat
- Two lanes worth of soak (since Butch did the doublesoaking)
or
the enemy needs to split their 4men which at the minimum gives back everything your team lost(?) while the enemy was more represented on the 4men-lane
It’s bad, it’s something Butch can only do if their enemies mess up because they don’t know how to macro.
thats true, he is not tanky (not even with the sucky block talent at lvl1)
Yes, apart from the blindness, the most annoying thing is that an enemy simply can walk away from butcher when you mark him and that’s it, you can no longer heal yourself
not only low AA dmg, the AA speed feels pretty slow too
i have this as a mantra when i play him:
In order to win with The Butcher, he need 3 things to happen all at once:
(1) the butcher team needs to be able to score kills without him
(2) the enemy team needs to play carelessly
(3) the butcher need to play VERY conservatively until his meat quest is done
- technicaly, the only kills the team makes, should have butcher nearby. Having relatively low kills isnt an issue. Its just that the butcher needs his chances to get the meat.
- the enemy needs to lacks kills to counter butcher specificly, and otherwise your team should get the kills for butcher.
- even after the quest, he should at least be careful when the enemy team can actualy counter him.
There is some truth in having your mindset though, as it makes you even more careful (a good thing). But in the end, butcher has only a few playstyle options for the early game:
- Collect the meat using minions (is slow, but when properly done and when lacking an offlaner, is often doable)
- Aim towards kills (if the enemy denies you the first, this second option generaly becomes viable)
- Stick with an offlaner as group of 2
In all 3 options, its not optimal (but hey, butcher isnt optimal against decent teams anyway), but it gives the butcher his progress.
Getting killed is worse for butcher than losing a minion wave. As getting killed causes you to lose the wave and the meat.
As we also know, nazeebo is capable of getting 300 stacks before 20, sure, butcher is slower at waveclear, but he gets 2 meat per minion. 100 isnt such a bad treshold on that as 1 lane is generaly enough. It just requires patience.
To me, butcher generaly gets the best spike at level 7. Because the brand there grants movement speed, this helps at chasing, but also at running in case you get blinded. And i think this is the first point in where as butcher you can slowly start to take the initiative in fights. However, you obviously should still only do that when you know your team can cover you.
I think they also should add the following butcher tip in the game:
As butcher: before 200 meat, you often must get carrjed. after 200 meat, you often start carrying.
well i just discovered one of the biggest downsides playing as butcher, i just tried to log in my game and i discovered my account got suspended!! lol (keep in mind i only play butcher in unranked lately) https://prnt.sc/wdnkxh so i wanted to find a reason why i got suspended i and checked my email and found this: https://prnt.sc/wdnjni
Violation: Non-participation
Refusing to participate in a game (such as staying absent, dying intentionally, or hindering your team in other ways) ruins the game for your allies and the opposing team. These actions violate our rules of the game .
yeah, , now I remember, it must have been one of those games where I was with a team that was not able to kill anyone, so I was farming minions trying to collect meat … obviously I would never refuse to participate in a fight while having my quest completed … thats the big problem, in struggle games, having to farm minions a lot of time “afk in lanes”, beeing useless the entire game, all team blaming me (happened to me a lot of time), and saying report butcher for afk, and then bam!!! a suspension again, thanks god i have severals alt accounts… but sometimes i just want to unistall 
, the only thing that holds me in this game is The Butcher 
… cyall in a month
This could be solved, if his traits procc globally like exp globes and he get time to collect it, if he is going to the meat.
WTF soaking exp on a solo lane is a violation of the rules?! Another proof that Blizzard’s automated report system sucks.
well, if u get several reports about being afk, it doesnt matter if u have a high sige damage (i always have a high siege dmg) the problem is me, maybe being afraid of dying and losing progress with quest meat, I could have avoided some unfavorable fights in which my team went straight to suicide, seeing that this did not suit me much, I simply preferred to stay in lanes and farming minons… this can be taken for pepega teammates as being afk… is kinda hard… I would swear by my mother that I would never be refuse to participate in game, if I had the quest completed… and i know it was with the butcher because i only play him (except a few in aram where picks are randoms)
And this is why I think it’s totally stupid, because farming exp to get an advantage is one of the key aspects of the game, if someone gets reported for this, when he is playing carefully with The Butcher… it is clearly an report abuse to me and if the player get suspended, then the report system is working wrong and it is Blizzard’s fault, that means the one, who denied your appeal against this suspension has no clue about how the game should be played.
yea but it still doesnt matter, only numbers matters, also it doesnt matter who punch first in chat, even if 4 people say toxcis things to you in the chat ( like one time some ppl told me i am a “wood player, playing a F tier character” (the butcher)lol) and you reply in the same way, you might be reported x4 times (once for each player in the game) and you will have a higher chances of being punished, I doubt very much that they will review each game and the statistics to see if someone was or not afk
I think the problem is butcher snowballs too hard. At a certain point he has an “I win” button where even if an assassin stands next to their core… he will kill them. Half the time he will waltz right out after the healing he gets too. The worst thing that happens to the butcher is a 1-for-1 trade if you can kill him after the fact.
Here is a recipe for frustration.
- Let a hero dive you from the other side of your screen (usually from the fog of war where they cant even be seen).
- Let them put a root AND silence on you so they can have 4 free shots on you. because Root + Silence gives you a lot of options…
- Reward those free shots with giving them half their health back… cause why not? He did press 1 button after all.
- Let those free shots hit for 800+ dmg per swing.
Thats most late-game butcher play.
The obvious fix is some early game buffs and then cap his stupid trait to not be a 1 man wrecking ball.
Butcher needs a re-design. Mandatory stacking quests are bad.
I still say something like:
50 meat max, no meat lost on death.
Meat gained on hitting branded heroes, as well as from minion/hero deaths.
Activate trait to consume 10 meat, gaining buffs for x seconds.
Buffs should definitely include movement speed, offering him some disengage potential.
Also either armor or damage.
And possibly cooldown reduction.
Buff increases in power for each stack of meat eaten while still under the effect of the buff, and consuming meat refreshes the duration of the stack.
So Butcher can spread it out to slowly build up and keep himself going, or use it back to back to quickly build up for a shorter burst of power.
It’s kind of like Dehaka’s but less reliant on minion kills (no global) and doesn’t automatically burn it all in one use.
Being essentially an extra ability, and having multiple ways to use it, could increase the skill ceiling of Butcher.
By not being a stupid late game power spike, he wouldn’t be such a polarizing hero.
*shifts eyes back and forth from my custom heroes to your line
It’s better not to write to those players at all. If they start flaming in draft for your Butcher pick, open a whisper tab on one of them. It will show if they’re in a party of 4 players.
If they are in a party of 4 players, mute chat and don’t talk at all during the game. There is a high chance they will report you if the game is lost.
The reports (at least for abusive chat) will be automatically discarded if you didn’t write during the match.
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if there were more heroes like lost vikings or D.Va, where a death is meant to be “cheap” in XP but Butcher still got a full stack of meat, he’d be in a better place as a counterpick kind of niche. (Though I’d still want a rework from his “useless before 200 stacks” setup)
hello , level 100 Butcher here, and Butcher needs my rework: