Blizzard's MM is bad and is not going to keep new players

Just because you’re average MMR/Rank-wise doesn’t mean your anecdotal evidence means anything, because there were Silver, Gold and Plat players (the average middle grounds) that said their wait times increased. Which shouldn’t be a surprise because QM isn’t that tight on mmr averaging and the new rule which was culprit had to do with Roles, not Ranks.

I am high lvl yet I didn’t have the big queue times I read and heard about.

Blizz rolling back the rule. You know they have data about queue times too, right? Like anything that happens ingame can be collected and analysed.

I actually only saw the middleground complain.

That’s your take. Like you look at ppl as close-minded if they’re against your ideas. Because you cannot admit you’re wrong and search fault in others, hiding behind some fake logic. Just like how you blame MM and other players for your losses.
And humility? I’m the one who admits they’re the minority while you refuse it just because there are categories/topics where you are the majority which has nothing to do with this topic.
Being Gold =/= your problems are the average problems (or that they are real).
Maybe

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You’re being unnecessarily defensive. What forum clique, as you like to call it, often voice out is the realistic take on the matter, considering current HotS situation (sent to Classic team, lack of dev/manpower, dwindling playerbase). The non-forum players, who rarely ever visit the forum, don’t really consider that. It is often times apparent that they think HotS is like the usual AAA games with enough support from the company. It’s not.

As for your suggestion. How do you propose devs accomplish that? Always think of the catch, the other end of downside/change that needs to be made. I can think of couple. Like, removing the 3rd ban and revert back to 2 bans? But you do know 3rd ban is what players requested, right? Because of the growing hero numbers. Reduce timer during ban, picks? That’s more feasible, but is that what players want? Afaik, they already reduced the timer once. And at least in pro scene (or what’s left of it), timer gets kinda tight. To make the draft time reduce by half? That’s a big ask.
(this is all assuming devs have the time to work on this btw)

To me at least, the draft time was not much of an issue. The game has already started, the mind game between two teams, or even among your own team. Draft/hero picks influence heavily on the game outcome so.

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No, it wouldn’t be.

“reading” is not just the meaning inferred from one word directly after the other; it is the entirely of what is presented. It is more than a clause, it is more than a sentence. The use of a ‘quote’ can be to provide context, or ‘evidence’, but the exact of what is quoted does not mean that only what is quoted is the point of reference.

The segment I quoted is not the entirely of what I addressed, and that would be made evident if you would read it through ‘entirely’ and not respond to items as you see it.

What you reply to me is line-item responses that filter out what is there instead of reacting to presumptions you are inserting because it’s easier to make something else up instead of taking the time to process what is actually there. At not point did I suggest

but that is the response you offered because you assumed that I didn’t “Read” your quote, and thus use that to rationalize the condition of not reading through what I wrote.

No, they didn’t. However, since you persist in showing how you reaffirm your presumptions with bad information – such as your reply to me that conjures up something that isn’t present, and then trie to refute ‘that’, you are indicating the very issue I am trying to present, and yet you act like I am not, and ignore it.

The capacity for people to think they ‘don’t stand a chance’ just means they don’t ‘take the chance’ and convince themselves of inaction. You demonstrate that conduct in these topics and use that as excuses for bad behavior to reinforce the bad behavior because you’re already convinced you have reasons to do so by ignoring options presented to you.

Human action is not a ‘chance’, and not taking action has direct consequences related to the missed opportunity.

“comebacks are rare” because people already convinced themselves to not recognize the opportunity because they’ve already convinced themselves they don’t ‘have a chance’. Part of the fundemental issue of these options, how they happen, and the success is derived entirely from preparation and experience. Those are things people routinely deny themselves because they look at it as “Chance” and not something more deliberate. Yes, there are ‘odds’ and elements outside of a person’s own direct control, but these particular attitudes are frequently gated behind specific ‘skill’ breakdowns largely because those that don’t learn to make and use the opportunity (oh an opponent has to ‘make a mistake’ rather than the player ‘forcing’ them to make a mistake) don’t make the effort because they’re already convinced it is ‘waste’ and then circular-reasoning themselves into accepting bad outcomes out of incomplete data.

While you may not like that the showing of the replay can be used to ‘embarrass’ the poster, if what they said is true, they don’t have anything to be ‘embarrassed about’ and it can act as confirmation of the issue presented by people claiming something has a conclusion apart from what they are willing to consider.

A major issue of not just the game, but many like it, is that people are already convinced something breaks down into only two options. One they cast as being horrible, so they are ‘forced’ to take the only other option they consider. They are blind-siding themselves with that approach, refuse to consider otherwise, and then assume things about anyone else that doesn’t directly agree with them in favor of prattling off more about what they personally can’t do, despite demonstrations contrary to their consideration.

You attitude to me is such that you think I did not read the extent of your reply, so you use that to not read through mine, and then attack what I wrote through the ignorance of your actions.

That is on you, and that is the same issue people take with the game in how they neglect possibilities because they don’t ‘read’ the situation through, and then just look to fault others because they’d rather think themselves to be ‘right’ than to actually bother to check, try something, and do better.

So in that light, I suggest you bit in a bit better effort and read this stuff through instead of ranting off on your disconnected strawman that you found, somehow, easier to shape into your ironic reply.

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Yea that’s exactly them being “openminded” as they preach :slight_smile:

Let’s try to reiterate:

My point is that people who put too much emphasis on “I can only enjoy it if we can win” tend to prematurely decide the chances of winning and end up sabotaging the game in various ways.
They go afk, they call GG in 4 minutes, they start flaming the team, and so on. Their chances of winning are lowered because they presume to know how it ends.
And this is not only the effect on others through their ingame actions; it’s also the effect on themselves as a mental state. Someone who, for instance, decide that the game is lost 4 minutes into the game but doesn’t say anything about it, are likely to start playing worse as to them it wont matter. In their mind, regardless of whether they play at 100% or 10%, they will lose regardless.
This will naturally differ from person to person.
KishMyAxe, your comment of “I knew from the start—” would at least put you in that mental category. Naturally that is only an assumption/guess.

If you can make an prediction that “This game is totally lost” before the gates opens, but it doesn’t interfere AT ALL with your play, you still play 100% fully focused on trying to win throughout the match until it’s truly over, and no one would be able to tell the difference between you playing a game you know you will win or one you know you will lose, then my overall comments do not relate to you, no.

A lot of people don’t realize that one’s mental state has a lot to do with their current skill. Depending on the person, it doesn’t take a lot for someone to lose their focus.

I am not going to argue about your 90% prediction rate claim or make any more assertions as to whether your 90% prediction rate is a result of self fulfilling prophecies.

What I will say is that if you predict that you will lose a game, but wont let it hinder you in the slightest and you are as focused as ever, then you have my respect, as that is a rare trait.
The majority of victory focused players are quite the opposite.

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Is this thread there yet? I mean really, it should have ended long ago. The OP made a suggested change to ranked where the core philosophy of the idea was made with the assumption that the OP isn’t an anti-social player. The OP also suggested a “community council” (of which he would be one) would decide what players are allowed to play ranked, based on them being upstanding members of the community.

Lucifer then links two matches where the OP is throwing abuse at others. As I already said to the OP, this invalidates his idea, at least where his personal integrity supports it and it is a clear illustration why a community council would suck (deliberate choice of word).

OP, you have some okay ideas, most of us have asked for in game Guilds/Communities since launch. History though proves that forcing people to play only as groups of five, leads to that version of ranked (Team League) being the most unpopular PVP mode in Hots and even far less popular than VS AI.

I feel the above should be a sticky on the main forum or in a pop up window when people log into these forums.

There is no forum clique, most of the regulars had disagreed with someone at some point, but most of us have been adult enough to keep things civil and kept an open mind to hearing criticism or a different point of view, without construing it as a personal attack. This is a discussion forum after all!

Many people come here with super ideas daily, which often have been suggested or are supported by the community, but they aren’t possible unless Hots suddenly is given more than token support from Blizzard. Blizzard still hasn’t fixed an issue with their game client after two months, so I would be shocked if they suddenly reversed their position on Hots and suddenly funded it as a AAA game again.

Peace out and all that!

Thanks to Karabars - Yo, this post belongs over here!

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Wrong thread, same folks :smiley:

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Oh for the love of… Yes you’re right Karabars, I had both in tabs and I responded to the wrong one as it has exactly the same few people arguing for a certain issue.

I’m just going to leave it up, whatevers. :wink:

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It’s just the easiest way to cope for ignorant / delusional people. Rather than admit that their idea is bad or poorly thought out, it’s simpler to simply imply that everyone else is apart of a huge circle of weirdos that don’t care at all about the forum in favour of agreeing with each other in some weird sense of solidarity.

It really is just so stupid. In their minds, this would be a common situation:

“Hey… (Name of guy) just said something rather stupid on (name of thread). But he’s arguing against someone not apart of our clique, so let’s all pretend we agree with his stupid comment so we can show that OP that we actually agree with how wrong he is!”

What’s even more dumbfounding is that if they actually believe that the forum is just one massive clique that only care to stroke each other’s ego, then why do they even bother saying anything. Would seem utterly pointless.

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To fight the unjust world. Everyone is a Hero in their own story. Viva RevoLúcio!

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Your anecdotal evidence isn’t any better than mine.

Roles and ranks should be included when trying to put together a balanced matchup and there is no possible logic that says it shouldn’t. The only downside is the amount of time it takes to get there. So how much time is “too long” in your opinion?

Then why are you against wait a little longer than you are now to increase the odds of getting a balanced matchup?

Blizz has no idea why a player uninstalls their game or simply never returns. But they sure know who is complaining on the forums.

I’m pretty sure I am in the middleground. My complaint is the exact opposite. The only thing that has ever made me wanna quit this game is the all too frequent 1-sided stomps (even when I’m on the winning side).

Sorry, I’ve just never seen a new idea or a substantial change that you have liked. Like I posted in another thread… “I’m not negative, its just that every idea is terrible!” BTW… I didnt create this thread.

Yeah, dealing with people who are always wrong is tough. I don’t know how you do it. :slight_smile:

Heh, please quote where this occurred…

Thats exactly what I am suggesting :slight_smile: Theres 12 rounds of picking/banning at 45 seconds each… I’ve never needed 45 seconds because I’m thinking about what I’m gonna do while other players are making their picks.

Yes, the forum clique… They share pretty much the same opinion on things… go around liking each others posts… gang up on those they disagree with… are generally more polite to each other than those outside the clique.

This forum reminds me of the bar you see in the movies where an out-of-towner comes in and the music stops and all the regulars sneer at the new guy… (heh, that part I say mostly in jest.)

LOL… ain’t that the truth.

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In psychology, that’s called self sabotage and hindsight bias.

They purposely prevent themselves from winning and then go and say “it was a loss anyway”. At that point, players care more about being right than winning.

And then they proceed to complain on how the game is against them and that this game is trash because they can’t win. In reality, they’re just against themselves and can’t overcome it.

Some might tie hindsight bias to narcissism.

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That’s why I conclude based on Blizz’s decision.

Because if I’d like to have standard conps (which you mistake with balanced), I would go to Draft modes.
But I like playing as or against weird comps, my experience is, that “balance” (the high winchance you’re searching) is in mentality and skill.
I just want to play the moment I hit ready and I can make us win.

They see if a change increases or decreases player numbers in seasons.

Rank-wise, yes. It means as much as me having fast queues in high mmr.

That’s because ppl don’t know how to play from behind, so usually the first team getting the lead will keep it and escalate it. You cannot make MM Rules to prevent that.

I like the idea of a Guild System. I like the idea of more strict rules in SL so ppl cannot play a Hero there at the first time. I wanna make the game more newplayer friendly.

And many other ideas I created or supported. You shouldn’t assume my post history without actually checking it.

Pretty sure the thread you’re mentioning is @KishMyAxe’s? In which he mentions a Guild System and I supported that there as well? (And pointed it out that I did in the same thread 3x times while everyone supporting his whole thread ignored it?)

I won’t search quotes, instead I list a few here doing what I said I’m doing:

I admit I’m in high mmr, which is a minority.
I admit I’m in a minority that wants every QM rule except mmr based ones to be removed.

The emphasis was on not knowing why they left. I dont doubt they know about number of players online, how that number trends over time etc.

So if we all have low queue times… and only about half of my games are good matchups… Wouldn’t it reasonable to conclude there is a little too much emphasis on speed and not enough on quality? At least I think so.

Fair enough. Point ceded. :slight_smile:

I thought it was mostly accepted concept that 30% of your games are impossible to win, 30% of your games are impossible to lose and only 40% of your games ‘how you play’ actually matters (I think 40% is generous). The root cause of 60% of games having a pre-destin outcome is inefficiencies in the MMR. Simply, 1 of the teams was dealt a bad hand. I want to make that percentage smaller. Even if that means I go from a 90 second wait… to a 3-5 minute wait.

Im actually going from personal experience as well. I used to make suggestion threads about changes I thought would improve this game. You never seemed to like the ideas and we had some extensive back-and-forths on them (I enjoyed the back-and-forths if you couldn’t tell :slight_smile: )

There isn’t one. Some of the people on the forums are friends IRL or online friends and even they will disagree on many issues. I’ll let you in on a secret too, some of the so called “forum clique” have fallen out as friends with each other and some just don’t really like another poster for one reason or another.

As we are a very small community and most of us are adults, we can navigate these issues, disagree, discuss, but remain civil. This doesn’t equal the forum being a hive mind or a love feast. I’ve never even socialized with any of the people on this forum, but I respect many of them. I remain pretty much impartial considering I have no personal ties to them socially.

That is much more like the Hots subreddit which FYI, is much more influential in regards to what Devs read and listen to when making changes. Instead of taking unfounded stabs in the dark at people posting in good faith here, perhaps you should try your luck over at Reddit where at the very least, your ideas are more likely to be heard?

Nobody is doing that to you. You haven’t made a post complaining about “forced 50%” or wanting a surrender option of some silly thing. Just because we haven’t agreed with everything you’ve said, doesn’t mean you’re not welcome. That fact that people are taking the time to discuss matters with you should make you realize that you’re welcomed here.

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Some of the 10k posters are low ELO players with a very specific view on the game which doesn’t necessarily cover the reality of HOTS or Blizzard in 2022.

Just ignore them and find the people with which it’s worth to discuss things. You will find them.

I guess that depends on what side of the clique you are on. No one who has ever been part of a clique thought they were in a clique.

Im using personal experience. Not trying to open can or worms here… but here are 2 examples of me making a suggestion to improve the game… but they were like trying to push a boulder up a mountain.

And I am nowhere near crazy enough to try and post a thread about balance suggestions on this forum. There’s only 1 way that conversation goes…

Not that I want you to write me off completely (or create a tangent), but those things aren’t crazy and neither are the people who post them. :slight_smile:

Forced 50%: Blizz actually confirmed this was “both true and not true”… so not exactly a conspiracy theory.

Surrender button: It exists in other similar games that are thriving… how is this possible?

Thank you for that. (I’m being sincere)

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Prob in the minority, but I don’t believe much in the impossible nor in the guaranteed. Also heard ppl claiming certain accs have 80%+ winrates, which already disproves this theory.
And I know for certain I saw ppl with 25% wr, which means they lost more they “could”?
Ppl can win as much as 100%, the more realistic is 50% with ±20% variety, but even the 99 or 10% is doable. Ppl just need to try.

Based on the threads you posted:

I’m highly against the idea of hiding information.
I’m also against the idea that ppl should lose something that can be used for good because ppl can use it for bad. One of the reasons is because ppl need no tools to do bad, so you won’t stop them by taking their tools away, they can be mean without those.

From high mmr experience, and from many screenshots, replays and match stories I saw and heard, I know that stats are not good enough metrics to show who do how well. It’s a failed idea, because this is a teamgame, where certain Heroes do certain stats better, different roles have different jobs, and everything is a team effort. Do you dealt much dmg as an Assassin solely because you are good 100% sure, or the Tank/Healer who enabled you and created golden opportunites can take credit?
Also this idea was tested by Blizz and didn’t work.
Plus if someone is truly good, they can win often, so the current system also favours them.

But these has nothing to do with you. Nothing personal. So sorry if you felt threatened, or unwelcomed here, you are not. Keep trying to make the game better, but try to be open about criticism.

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