So I had my ups and downs with Hearthstone. There were better and worse metas like with every other game. But this Patch just pisses on the game. The absolut toxic and problematic Zerg decks do not get adressed while one of the very few fun and yes balanced and not op decks like infinite shaman gets destroyed. it was the only deck that i enjoyed in this meta.
So after playing since the beta the day has finally come and i will delete HS from my PC for good. Sorry devs you absolutly ruined the game more and more but this is “der Tropfen der das Fass zum überlaufen bringt”
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I don’t consider it a balance patch at all, it only did wide changes in BGs. They probably try to minimize dust given to players because that wouldn’t be P2W enough.
Infinite Shaman was by far the strongest deck in the game. In the top 1000 legends about 1/3 people played it. The entire metagame was centered around it. Either you played Shaman, or something that’s good against Shaman. The nerf was needed. On lower ranks it may have been overshadowed by Zerg-DK budget decks. In higher ranks the deck was super oppressive.
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Its like banning pawns in chess because they are too strong in the end game.
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I play in legend and i can tell you Zerg was always the problem. not shaman.
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There is no point in arguing with emotional people using anecdotal evidence. Here’s my last attempt to have a rational conversation:
1st argument:
There are website’s, that collect actual data. The biggest ones being HSreplay and Firestone. HSreplay uses the Decktracker to collect data. Therefore they have more than 120k contributors and collect data from more than 1.5mio games per day. According to HSreplay Zerg-DK isn’t even Tier1.
2nd argument:
High ranked streamers on twitch and youtube complained about Fizzle Shaman. Mainly because 1 in 3 games were against them. Making their streams very boring to watch. There is an abundance of video evidence from hour long streams that shows: In high ranks you face far more Shamans than Death Knights.
3rd argument:
Fizzle Shaman beats Death Knight. Fizzle Shamans have around 60% winrate against Zerg Death Knight. Unless the Shaman deck is too greedy, or the Shaman player tries to do the Fizzle combo, instead of going face.
4th and final argument:
All games happen via Blizzard’s servers. They have a record of all games played. They know the exact winrate of every deck. Don’t you think, if Zerg DK was more powerful than Fizzle Shaman, they would’ve noticed?
Maybe you’re playing an archetype that’s weak against them. Maybe some slow deck, that let’s them build up their Infestor combos. Maybe you are just playing your Shaman wrong. Whatever the case: Shaman was stronger than Death Knight.
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sorry but you faked some of that data there. DK wins against shaman most of the time thats why when i still played the shaman deck i started to insta concede against Zerg. It´’s no use to play with a winrate of 1-10. Zerg always wins agaisnt shaman if they do not draw totaly bull for the first 10 draws or so.
the thing is also not the the winrate (even though it is very high on zerg) it is the toxicity. there is nothing you can to if they get the aura started early. you know you will loose after 3 turns no matter what you play. against the infitite shaman there is a lot you can to until the very end. you can rat there fizzle you can use the new ghost for that too and you can just kill them with aggro early on. so this deck is not toxic like the zerg.
the dev team said a few months ago that they fokus on fun to play meta instead of best balance. they absolutly lied and showed it with this patch.
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Unfortunately I’m not allowed to post links. Instead I have to guide you:
go on hsreplay"DOT"net
klick on VIEW META TIER LIST
klick on Zerg Death Knight
klick on Matchups
Winrate of Zerg DK vs Terran Shaman is around 50/50 slightly favoring Shaman. Don’t ever say I’m faking data again you filthy liar!
If you win only 1 in 10 games, that’s on you. Either your deck is too greedy, or you’re playing it wrong. I can’t build a perfect Terran Shaman deck, because I don’t have Golganneth. Still my winrate is around 50/50.
The discussion is over from my part. You are lying and exaggerating. Then you call me a liar. You have no interest in a genuine conversation or in questioning you own biases. Just quit. Every troll less is healthy for the game and the forum. I won’t notice if you give another response, because I muted the thread.
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you are still a liar. yes the winrate is around 50% against TERRAN Shaman. Not inf Shaman. With the aggro version you have chance but not with the infinit version. yea go hide from the truth you have no idea about the game anyways as shown in many threads where you are posting right now
I have no Idea, why I looked at this thread again… maybe I’m just an idiot who falls for a troll. Yet here we are.
HSreplay never counted the two different Terran archetypes seperately. But because Infinite was the more popular variant, most data was from Infinite. Now they updated the site anyways, so we can’t look at the pre nerf data anymore unfortunately. Maybe you are right and the winrate is below 50%. I just concede this point to you.
However: Even if Zerg beats Infinite 100% of the time, what does it matter?
The other arguments still stand. If Zerg Death Knight is so much more powerful than Infinite Shaman: Why do streamers, top 1000 legend players, and Blizzard disagree? Shure, you just know better than all of them.
Okay, that’s a far more valid point. You can argue, that a deck is unfun to play against, even if it’s not overpowered. Quasar Rogue was nerfed for that reason. If you just say “I don’t like playing against it, because there is almost no counter if it highrolls.” I would even agree with you. But if you say the deck is overpowered and Infinite Shaman was balanced, that’s just wrong.
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so why did they hit priest as well. not the first time they are hit by collateral damage.
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Infestor is pretty much holding up Zerg, if they don’t get the deathrattles off then stuff like Terran Shaman beats Zerg.
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There were absolutely nothing fun in 45 turns of shamans’ and warriors’ mirrors and absolutely nothing balanced in 30+% shaman’s playrate in the 1st k.
The difference between the zerg DK problem and the terran shaman problem is that the first is the skill issue and the second is the balance issue.
Zerg DK is not a powerful deck at all. Unlike asteroid shaman, it is playable in high mmr, but no more.
It is hard to bring some tips how to win a game vs zerg DK, bc different decks win in different ways. But it is possible for most meta decks.
And the greatest problem of some other decks is not the fact they can lose to zerg DK – they can’t stand the presence of shamans, hunters etc. If you want to play something like protoss mage or priest… I want it too, and it is not zegs DK that I am afraid of. Probably I will be in the losestrick and stop playing before meeting any DK.
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Well, I’m trying to help: pick a strong deck and think about a plan of beating DK according to your deck.
Don’t forget DK doesn’t have a lot of taunts (weapon rogues like it) and his extra health / armor is limited (all decks that are able to perform in some kind of aggressive style like it).
Don’t forget that DK is relatively slow (you can have two 5-5 on the board on turn 2 playing buff zerg hunter, for example; warlocks can have giants later, but it is still quite soon and it is very difficult to deal with them for DKs without goldfish hands and topdecks).
Don’t forget DK can’t avoid playing minions (OTK hunters like it).
Don’t forget DK is almost helpless without some important minions that can be evolved or silenced (shamans like it: what a nice 3-2 reborn minion you have… would be a shame… now you have a frog 0-1).
Btw it should be relatively fun for many people, bc it is not like quazar rogues, it is smth the opposite: ppl really have counterplays in the current meta and should think about counterplays and should play according some kind of strategy depending on their decks. You can say that this situation is not fun if you like non-interactive combo decks (like me, I find this meta not fun) – or you like play green cards without thinking – or you are not honest or not logical in some point.
30.2.2. It literally had the worst change ever.
To me it’s not just about interactiveness, it’s about agency. The more agency you have, the more fair it feels to win or loose. Many games feel like: They get early Infestor? You lose. They don’t? You win. For the same reason, I didn’t like Quasar Rogue. They got early Quasar+Draw? You lose. They don’t? You win.
These decks, that hinge on a single card/combo, feel disproportionately bad to loose against. For the same reason it feels bad to loose against uninteractive decks. If there is no interaction, you have little agency.
Though all of this is just my personal preference.
uff so much wrong with your comment
- yes those games are fun. the most fun!
- 100% the other way around
- with infinite shaman you could only win against zerg if they drew absolutly horrible no other way so no influence by how you play
Terran shaman can work, if you get a good draw. It also has the shudderwok+ghost combo to wreck any potential mid/late game strat they have, then there’s the shudder+raynor combo, but again that’s closer to late game
I’m starting to think, you were not playing the archetype that got Fizzle banned. It was an agressive midrange deck. Literally Terran Shaman, with Fizzle and 2 Triangulate. It was very good at being a midrange deck, and if it didn’t kill you in the midgame, it fizzled you to death later. The deck you were playing seems to be way more lategame focused. Or focused at using Fizzle as the main wincon. Otherwise I can not explain how your winrate against Zerg is that low.
Can you please post a decklist? Maybe you were playing an entirely different deck, that got hit as collateral damage.
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I won many games against zerg DKs with early Infestor when I was playing different types of terran shamans.
But I agree that there’s not enough agency in the current meta, but for other reasons: terran mirrors and some match-ups highly depend on randomly generated starship pieces.
Ok, getting several medivacs and nothing more leads to losing even against zegr DK.
There are different types of terran shamans. As far as I know nobody runs ghost now. The slow control-like type usually runs shudderwok, but for slow match-ups. Usually it is not played vs DKs. DKs have problems with removing only one starship, usually no need + too slow to launch many starships.