Yeah, I won the game with George like that, but I had an insane roll. You need Mal’Ganis, you need Battlemaster. I was low on health so he was super strong, and I had golden Mal’Ganis. All demons by the end had the divine shield. It is not impossible to win, but demons are not that good compared to mechs and beasts.
Do you understand that this is exactly what people are trying to explain here:
ON AVERAGE, your best bet is to go mechs, then beasts, then some other strats… then murlocs… demons stand on the last step of this ladder FOR AVERAGE game
If you are normal player with normal rng, don’t do demons! They are not playable! Go mechs, beasts, or buff strats if you want to get playable builds…
Leave demons to professionals to experiment with, if you care about your rank.
you are exactly wrong… sir… most people cite the top teir players… playing the top teir decks… that they saw them play on a stream… and when 6/8 players are trying for 2 deck combos they saw once… the best bet is to go another way… better odds of getting the cards you are looking for to make the deck that will work… learn math
before you start throwing out words like average which is most definitely a mathematical term… which you are obviously completely unaware of the meaning of.
Oh how rude, and I though we are having an interesting discussion here…
Learn to play auto-battlers mate: forcing builds is sure way to lose games. You just go for best units, best strats OFFERED and then adapt. Demons are the worst and math won’t fix that.
ok, so i’m at 18 hours in. and i will admit my feelings are raw based on EVERYONE being so anti juraxxus/deamons… i apologize, but i also have 3 degrees where average is also a STRONG word… and the math does not support the claim juraxxus is below average. he’s at the average if u ask me. and well above it with some early good rolls… i’m actually lsoing rounds to typing over here… which is stupid, but i dont do it on jurraxus… just when i have a truly subpar hero like… secret guy which i have this game…
now on a serious note… look up the word average… and see if u think every available demon in most games vs every available mech in most games is a better call at average. then, look at the chances of surviving to +rank, vs -rank… take that average and tell me if u truly still think that when u are looking at juraxxus as a hero choice… you should just pass.
above post edited for language and aggressiveness… tho i am not calling you wrong for calling me out on both
Math says that there is lesser demon than mech in the game. Even if you have all for yourself, you are still having similar odds of finding mechs. Stats shows that Jaraxus is 9th worst hero out of the 24. That’s below average. Some believe at higher MMR his numbers get lower. I am not sure about that.
Well, again. I already explained in my previous replies: auto-battlers (mostly) played by adaptation…
And then you edit your post so here, I’ll reply to that instead:
That’s what I’m trying to tell you: there are 4 tribes + a lot of tribe-free units ingame, as math expert you claim you are guesstimate what’s your chances to get demons and WHY you are going demons? What are good demons?
Again problem is: most mechs are good, majority of beasts work (and can carry you till you get your hands on better units or will be able to modify your strat)
What demons work? only 2/4 t1 is good early game, and even then you want to buy tokens early game cause they allow flexibility… You want t5s and that’s already lategame.
AVERAGE demon is bad, NOT only as a unit, but also if you just try to force it.
Again, if you get all the demons all the time, ok why not try. But on average, you want better units and those are not demons.
Also, t5 demons usually ARE contested. Battlemaster is good in almost any build, and some heroes benefit from running malganis as well…
math says there are less demons and less useful demons than other classes on an equal basis… but factor in at LEAST 6 people going for mechs or beasts and u will find the probabilities of your demons going up… and up… and up. it’s something like an 80% chance of drawing better demons than mechs and 60% chance better drawing demons than beasts… and the odd murloc kills u in the end probably… or not if they die early
and without repilies… while playing, yes i have to edit earlier posts sometimes… if u reply after it’s not meant to reply to later posts, just i dont see them yet…
so i define good demons as ones that have a chance of winning. and sometimes, i define winning as better than 5th, but true true winning is that 1 or 2 spot (because even the better pick sometimes takes second to rng)… in general if i dont get 3rd or higher with a hero/tribe consistantly… i try for a better combo… and i play a lot of super early game with beast/murloc (extra summons) and sell them for mechs or demons later… only demons if i have juraxxus in MOST cases.
as juraxxus with no demon choices… i pick a murloc… rather than none… obviously… or a beast… or whatever is there… forcing is bad, you are right… but as juraxxus you have to drift back to demon… same as millificent has to drift back to mech.
and its around teir 4 (turn 6-9) depending on class and good minions available… that the game stops being PURE LUCK, and gets into skill… now their is skill to luck, knowing which rolls are lucky and which are super unlucky… knowing how to deal with bad luck rolls to build a non-lethal (to self) board… and all the other stuff… but at 6-9 turns… u CAN DIE… and the worst luck in the world will make u die despite how smart or good you are (myself included!)
so. can u die turns 6-9 with demons? very unlikely with the hero juraxxus… moderately unlikely with other heros because u can maybe have 2 triples by then and a stronger board than normal… but i dont recommend it.
and btw, i contest most people die in tier 4, rather than tier 5… although, those two teirs are where u seperate people playing for endgame vs early game (and midgame is not a thing in my world as midgame (tier 3) is ALL luck and none of it survives to endgame except in murlocs and some super super lucky beast builds) you and i both know we both try to jump from tier 2 to 4 as quickly as possible
i wrote a whole lot more about endgame, then hit the wrong button… but the long and short of it was, take the best and buff the rest… which juraxxus has built in and other classes need some rng…
additionally, yes competition, but those people are ususally desperate and breaking tribe late game which means death if they dont get lucky… and i’ll take plannign over luck if the math works out, which in this case it does.
To sum up: murlocs rarely survive the change to tier 6 from 4 (or 3 sometimes), beasts need to get solidly into teir 5 to be super lethal, and mechs are rng gods and highly contested by many heros and builds (3-6 per game) and tend to die due to non-optimization… your remaining tribe that can focus targets from tier 3-5 is demons. and if u only want 1st or nothing mech is the answer… but if 1st-3rd is okay… and u have juraxxus as an option… that is SUPER likely to work in the current meta
I’ve won with Demons, but it’s rough going. You can get a strong early game going with Wrath Weavers, but if you fall behind midgame to a mech god-roll and take a few bad hits, your strategy crumbles because you’ll just kill yourself. That said I’ve had some great wins, the last being with George to DS my 70+ guys and walking over mech with sheer stats.
Demons lack mid-game. Tier 1 and 2 are great then it’s all just too “fair” and you’re banking on Mal’ganis and Amalgam carries.
In comparison Mechs are amazing at all stages off the game.
This is the major issue with Demons. Too weak compared to Mechs and Beasts unless you get really lucky with late game Mal’Ganis draws.
This topic has been covered. In midgame when u are not getting as good minions, hit your triples, grab the higher teir and hope to get lucky (like everyone else) and hit your tribe out of the 3 offered… amass some battle criers that are usable and either use them or hang on for brann… and use the hero power… BUT upgrade as fast as possible thru those teirs… lemme break it down a little:
Turn one: grab the best demon or if there is no demon grab a minion that battlecry spawns another minion… or if neither exists grab a high health minion… if you got so unlucky as to have say only 1/1 taunt/shield/rattle minions… just grab one, who cares, bad rng…
- If there is a good minion still on the board, freeze it. don’t freeze for just any double, however… probably just demons or double on a spawner on turn 1… i won’t repeat it every round, so always freeze if a minion is as worth it next round as this. sometimes on round one with 3 demons i’ll freeze those demons all the way to round 5
Turn 2: if your opp upgraded or u face afk upgrade. If not, ask yourself if u can take a round loss and 2-5 damage… probably u will think yes and upgrade
Turn 3: Grab a demon or a double… if u get 2 demons and u wanna win a round, use hero power (if you dont get +2/+2 out of your hero power, don’t use it!) otherwise roll for good minions.
Turn 4: grab 2 demons… or 1 and a spawner or if yer unlucky reroll+1demon+hero power
- here’s the real real. if u dont have a single demon by turn 4 consider whatever tribe u have on your board and take your beating with good grace.
Turn 5: upgrade to tier 3, take a triple, take the best tier 4 for your board… cleave or buff probably… if u have a decent set of demons and say some alleycat garbage on your board, sell the excess minions and use your hero power or if u have enough garbage grab a leftover demon (unlikely)
Turn 6: if there are good demons on the board grab them, if not, jump to teir 4. Sell any remaining garbage for hero power or grabbing more demons
Turn 7: if there are good teir 4s on the board grab them. Not all of these will be demons, but we want the 5/8 taunt… if nothings there and u can survive… upgrade to teir 5
Turn 8+: grab big demons, grab brann, if u have an amalgam get the poisonous murloc guy, grab defender to taunt the guy who gets tons of health. use triples to take voidlord (i guess, he’s not that great compared to your board now) or the 7/10 assassin thing… use your hero power EVERY TURN before making triples. If you can magnetic divine shield into amalgam, thats worth it too (if u didnt do it earlier)… this is where yer gonna start murdering those murlocs and half formed mech decks… you should be killing an opponent per turn. Your weaknesses include: a lucky murloc who has all poisonous by turn 8-10, a fully formed mech deck (talking triple junkbot + single junkbot and a lot of deathrattle spawners for stats and divine shield reprocs), and an even partially formed beast deck with a couple good cleaves and suicide wolves out front… you are not afraid of mamabear spawners… those 11/11s are not gonna be enough to kill you
Same with Shudderwock and Pogo Hoppers.
Got to draft Shudders 2 games in a row. 1st game was at level 1 for 3 rounds No hoppers. No hoppers when I hit level 2 tavern. Meanwhile 4 people are killing the BG. AFK started on top after round 3, never left, never lost any health after round 3.
Next Match I jumped to tavern 2 round 2. Pogo hoppers? No Pogo hoppers. Round 3, Pogo hoppers? No Pogo Hoppers. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8? Seriously. No Hoppers. Yeppers I refreshed just cause at that point I was already in the dumpster minions first 4 rounds and lost every round for 7 rounds. Where’d all the hoppers go? No one else had any. Even at tavern 3. Hoppers? Nope.
So here is the problem:
- 12 cards synergize with demons, 7 are demons
- 11 cards synergize with murlocs, 8 are murlocs
- 24 cards synergize with mechs, 23 are mechs
- 22 cards synergize with beasts, 19 are beasts
(if I count them corectly more or less)
Now do the math, all players have a shared pool. What is most likely to see? No one said that they are not strong if you can pull the combo. Chances you are going to pull it are very slim. It is all about consistency. Out of all those mechs, most of them are useful as a unit later into the game. How many useful demons are as a unit? Mal’Ganis, Voidlord, Battlemaster(only if you are low on health), Imp Gang Boss. I mean I get it you like demons, I like them too, but be realistic. It sux to play them.
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okay… so, lets do the math… 1 person pulling from your 12/7 bucket vs lets say 3 (and its more likely to be more players going for mechs than 3!) pulling from your mech bucket of 24/23… 12/7 > 8/7.75
thats basically yer break even point. so YES, as said about 6 times in this post… someone being the ONLY person going mechs is gonna do better than the ONLY person going demon… but it is FAR more likely your mech and beast pools will be shared across many players… and since there is really only one hero that shines with demons… if u have juraxxus as a starting option, it is NOT a BAD option… it is a fair/better than fair option… my original complaint was the constant bottom tiering of jurraxus as a hero… and he is solidly middle ground or slightly (very slightly) above…
if you want to do some recombinant math and/or calculus with me on card draws from randomized set pools, to find if the exact break point is 2 mech decks, 3 mech decks, or 4 mech decks… lemme know. but when is the last time u saw more than 1 demon deck? and if anyone wants to argue that i’m wrong u should be pointing out how other classes use demons as well because until that happens you CAN NOT BEAT THE MATH
So where’s your math? You only scream MATH MATH MATH, but provide nothing.
Also where’s your rank? Seems like YOUR math is wrong.
@shred provided good numbers why demons are bad. Also early on most people pick whatever is strong and that also includes some demons, later, again as mentioned by others battlemaster is good, and malganis played by some heroes.
Not to mention there are alamalgams and lightfang present which means some people gonna pick even more demons(or demon buffers) just to fill in the gap till they solidify their lineup.
While at the same time there are 2 units (in demon strat) that deal damage to you - ez way to lose before you even reach lategame.
Voidlord is BAD wo juggler.
Wrath guys are NOT even demons, so you can’t buff them with buff cards (or Jar’s hp).
And if you want to argue that I am wrong u should bring up some numbers, until that happens you CAN NOT BEAT FACTS
Tier 1 minions have 18 copies
Tier 2 minions have 15 copies
Tier 3 minions have 13 copies
Tier 4 minions have 11 copies
Tier 5 minions have 9 copies
Tier 6 minions have 6 copies
Chances you pull Jaraxxus are 2 out of 24 for most people who didn’t preorder, which is 8.3% or for those who did 12.5%. For what I know the minion pool is fixed, which means minions you buy don’t get replaced. Minions you sell, go back to the pool, minions from dead players as well. I think you have all the info(variables) you need to calculate chances for the perfect Jaraxxus game with the demons vs 8+ heroes who are good with mechs. I would like to know what are the chances, my math skill is not that good enough to do it myself. Thx.
The argument about menageries taking demons is a good one, i’ve said it before thats the only fly in the ointment… if someone pulls menagerie and takes a piece you’re looking for it might ruin the whole thing… and with the constant banter now about menagerie being OP since the buffs/nerfs… i have not had the time to go back and do the super complex math.
my placement trying to play mech/menagerie was 4100 (3980 at the low before i swapped strats) and it’s now 5200 since i abandoned that strat.
As to whether i’m the best HS player, no, i’m not. i barely play competitive before BG, i consider it an idle game… but BG appeals to people who like statistics and odds (gamblers, poker players)…
I haven’t sat down with paper to do the math or even figure out what all the minions bucket sizes and draw odds… but the one TRUTH I know is that the more people drawing from one bucket wrecks the ability to put all the pieces together to beat even an average deck… With presumably buckets in the thousands and acceptable/useful minoins in the 100s or less, the base chance of any given minion being useful is less than 10%, and the low tier ones being basically in abundance, lots of people will get “bait” minions shifting them towards mech early… then when u hit tier 5 and there is less than a 1% chance of drawing a junkbot, and if your board isn’t just awaiting that one piece, it would take… 14 rerolls to have a 50% chance of getting one, meaning u’ll spend 2 turns to get each junkbot if you’ve averagely lucky, and sinking in probability to get the next… of course u can take small upgrades and increase that chance with certain hero powers, and whatnot… but getting that ONE card to finish your deck is luck, and the more people looking the longer the odds… there’s a little more than basic math of a single piece you MAY be looking for… i’m not sure i’ve seen a winning deck without junkbots (2 or a golden or a golden +1)… so at tier 5 if you aren’t pretty powerful/survivable… taking 2 rounds of damage might be lethal, or crippling… although i have found that pulling one card has taken me from 5th place (2 health) to a 1st… so… who knows?
The part about dead hero’s minions going back into the pool is new to me? I don’t know it’s true as of yet, about to google some to see if i can find any validation of this assertion… that would make an ENORMOUS difference, and if it is true… i may very well be wrong. we will see.
I scream math! math! math! because more than any other hearthstone mode this is a statistics and odds driven mode. It is also a luck driven mode, so there will always be lucky and unlucky.
I have not purchased any packs so i only get 2 hero choices and putricide vs juraxxus… tell me what u would pick. pyramid vs jurraxus… etc etc…
The odds of any hero/tribe perfect game is infintessimally small, I am not talking about perfect games… I’m talking about real game outcomes and the probability of getting a deck that survives until 4th regularly (always would be preferable, but with luck always doesnt exist), and has solid chances at the 1-2 slot.
for the 7th? 8th? time… the perfect mech/beast and now menagerie deck since it’s apparently not seen as impossible anymore, will be better than the perfect demon deck… but the average mech deck vs the average demon deck (with juraxxus as the hero) is better.
As to stats: I’ve 1st placed 1 out of about 20 attempts with mechs (milli, rat king, bartender, maybe a couple others where i got mech draws). 3 times with juraxxus/demons out of 8 i have placed first and 6/8 have been top 4… that’s the simple math, and maybe luck, we shall see long run
I’m finding the most difficult thing in going demons lately is that everyone else seems to. No Jarraxus in sight, so I want to pick up a Wrath Weaver or two and some early demons and get some memes rolling, I don’t seem to roll many and next thing I find 4 other heros are packing the exact same thing and emptying the pool. I transition to something else and the other 3 lose and end up 5th-8th place.
It seems that despite demons being weaker, they’re more fun or people just like meme’ing with the underdog.
The part about dead hero’s minions going back into the pool is new to me? I don’t know it’s true as of yet, about to google some to see if i can find any validation of this assertion… that would make an ENORMOUS difference, and if it is true… i may very well be wrong. we will see.
They do. It’s even an ingame tip.
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Well thing is, this topic should be split into 2 different problems, demons and Jar.
You are always talking about both in combination. In my opinion Jar is “kinda” viable (its probably still low tier, maybe even worst tier). Main mistake one can make with Jar is trying to force demons (As I already mentioned - autobattlers are all about adaptation). +1/+1 for 2 gold to two units (amalgam and battlemaster ideally) lategame better than Sir finleys’s double hp use (and you need to sell smthing to do that). 2 amalgams make it even better. Still bad, but at least its usable.
If you split this thread in 2 topics, then what I just said before about Jar is another argument against demons. Cause even if specific hp made for demons is not good enough to force them, means they are really bad. (as an example Mili, before she got remover, wanted to force mechs ALL the time).
you are entirely correct, that both in tandum is powerful and one without the other is problematic… not impossible, but not easy… i just got 2nd place with amazramak (secret guy) and pure demons due to draws… but that is NOT common and took 4 iceblocks…
and i’ve seen the second place mecha jurraxus argument and watched kripp do it in a vid. dont know what place he got, i gave up watching, but he did pretty good.
but if u look at the title of the thread… it’s in combination… and that is the intent to say, if u play juraxxus right and get mediocre luck, u will do well… but i take your point