VS Data Reaper Report #198

Multiplayer Discussion
63

except now they are gonna be irrelevant for the next two years

also Hunter is literally oppressing the Meta as we SPEAK

64

Can you give me the lottery numbers for this weekend please?

Oppressing? How can something with several counters be oppressing anything? Even if it was, its been a week. Chill

65

funny how you sure as hell weren’t chill for Paladin after the first week of Barrens, or for the first week of nerfs
also funny how you don’t care that Hunter has almost the same matchup spreads that Paladin used to have as well, same with Shaman

66

It was obvious to anyone but the most blinkered that Paladin was fundamentally busted in early Barrens. Its not the same situation with Hunter, its because theyre taking advantage of people playing bad decks

From the latest vs report on Face Hunter:

’ As usual, Face Hunter is thriving in a new meta filled with janky and inefficient strategies. The meta is so greedy that it is even the best performer at top legend, though this is likely temporary.’

Compare that to week 1 Libram paladin

’ Libram Paladin is utterly unstoppable. There are a couple of Rogue decks that might be able to develop an edge against it (Watcher and Secret Rogue) but the deck is probably getting nerfed before we can see it.’

The tone is a little different, no? Take off those yellow tinted specs and the world will look very different

1 Like
67

I never defended Paladin when Barrens launched. I said Sword needed nerfs, in fact I’m still not even sure if that was the right nerf to it because I wanted them to slow down Paladin’s curve a bit.

And yet here you are, defending to the death the exact same Hunter deck people HAVE been using since the entire expansion (which was second only to Paladin that entire time, mind you), which is now number 1 with still zero changes.

But this is fine when Hunter does it right? It’s cool when they get to strangle half of the classes out of this game, because HUNTER is the one doing it! That’s just how Hearthstone should work, Hunter ALWAYS has to be at top!

68

This rant has such a lack of nuance I’m not even gonna bother

1 Like
69

I think he’s using the same logic certain people used against paladins. In other words I think it’s a case of pot meeting kettle (not you specially)

See, apparently when paladin was tier 2 or better last year, that count towards them being OP for a long time, not just the last 2 months of Barrens. Paladin match up spreads last year certainly wasn’t as green as it was in the first weeks of Barrens, but again, people didn’t care. That last year (which wasn’t really a whole year since they weren’t that good in outlands) still counts, so paladins have been quote unquote too good for too long.

So he’s now counting hunters as being too good for too long simply for being tier 2 or better, and accusing people of holding double standards if they aren’t as equally outraged.

3 Likes
70

I would have loved to see spell damage mage or Ping made good enough to compete, but so far they’ve abandoned both.

71

Just because one idiot had a bad take doesn’t mean you can extrapolate that everyone is thinking like said idiot.

Hand of Adal was a problem. It did too much for initiative and sustainment for 2 mana, and became particularly egregious with Knight of Annointment. Would we even have needed to nerf Crabrider and First Day of School if it had been nerfed on the previous patch as I suggested?

There’s a nuanced discussion to be had regarding the way Paladin developed in this expansion.

2 Likes
72

I would actually say yes, they would need nerfs still.

For crab rider, there are other attack buffs, and they have been used. Conviction being another big one, with shield of honor, authority, and possibly even kings all following it. Pre-nerf it popping out from murgur prime isn’t the worst murloc to spawn. It’s also theoretically possible for libram paladins to run it. The card is just so good.

First Day would likely be necessary too, as paladins got a lot of early game options coming into barrens/core, such that while it may have been fine last year, it’s now too much.

In case you haven’t caught on, I don’t think HoA is a problem, and didn’t deserve the nerf. 2 mana +2/2 with an effect is quite fair. A draw is a particularly good effect of course, but not one so strong that you give up a stat point for. The problem is the range of early minions paladins had such that it was easy for paladin to have something to buff, but that wasn’t limited to HoA (see above on list of other buffs paladins could use, and have used, and I’m pretty sure were complained about too). This is further made worse as other classes lost relatively more options from rotation.

Given how fast paladins dropped instead of like tier 2 as many thought, I do think the second First Day nerf alone would have been enough.

1 Like
73

So how doesn’t any of this apply to Cagematch, it’s a 2/2 that draws cards.

1 Like
74

Cagematch doesn’t have Rush/Charge.

75

and if you clear Paladin’s board, HoA is almost useless
in fact this is the big problem with Paladin in general that this board just loves to ignore for some reason

2 Likes
76

It’s true, but when did Hunter ever lack hard counters the way that tier s Paladin did? I’ll admit to hating pre nerf Libram Pally, but I never pretended that was anything more than a personal taste issue. I argued it needed a nerf the same time as nitro boost because it was already tier 1 and Pally was losing basically none of its good cards with the rotation.

1 Like
77

People didn’t care whether paladins had hard counters or not last year either. That last year still counted towards paladins being quote unquote too good for too long.

Another thing I’ll add: it’s been said that hunters are good at early expansion cuz aggro decks usually have easier time preying on players trying out new/greedy/bad decks. Well… why can’t same be said of paladins? The earliest decks that dominated Barrens weren’t the slower librooms or libram paladins that still ran liandrin. They were aggro decks. And it was not only a new expansion, but a new rotation where most classes except paladins lost a lot. As in, they’re even more vulnerable to aggro decks.

While this isn’t to say some nerfs weren’t necessary, it does mean paladin’s dominance isn’t entirely due to their cards being too good, and ergo this last round of nerfs became too much, and the class is dropping like a brick.

So rounding it back to your comment: paladin lacked hard counters not because they were too good, but because other classes have become too bad after rotation. Thus nerfing paladins didn’t do much, but releasing a miniset did. But then they still nerfed paladin again, but that last one became too much (as I said in another post, maybe just the First Day nerf alone would have been enough)

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78

That’s completely wrong.

Aggro was almost nonexistent because of Watchposts.

You couldn’t play for the early board. Forged in the Barrens is the first expansion in Hearthstone history where early on aggro was bad.

79

Except all those Paladins were (arguably are still) aggro.

Watch post didn’t kill aggro. Watch post was killing tempo. Tempo is important for aggro, but it isn’t equal to aggro.

From vs 192, Paladins (and mages) happen to have ways to work around watch posts and they were at the top. Rogues were apparently the class that made the most out of watch post so they came 3rd. But what came after? Face hunter and gibberling druid, aggro decks.

80

You said “Dominated”.

Barely breaking even in Win Rates and being 5th (Druid) and 8th (Hunter) in play rate is the worst Aggro has fared in any early meta.

81

It seems to me that the Watchposts enabled a great many decks and when they were nerfed those decks all disappeared from the meta.
Idk that I like the idea of neutral cards being the lynchpin for so many decks.
When they are nerfed then those decks die with no backup for the class.

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82

I don’t know how you come to that conclusion.

Only Rogue had a Watchposts deck above Tier 4.

1 Like