I’m suggesting let’s not add new powerful cards, on already powerful classes.
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And uhh, yes… The thing that ends the game that you can’t defend against is definitely the thing that should be nerfed over the thing keeping the hunter alive.
Otherwise the game is just a race to burn or OTK your opponent with no real moments of interaction.
Which is the more problematic statement
“I instantly lose the game if the hunter reaches 10 Mana”
Or
“The hunter can clear my board and heal”
The second statement is only a problem when the first exists.
The first statement is a problem even if the hunter can’t heal.
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Mkay. Why is that a problem?
I mean, I’m not saying that the deck needs a nerf at all — but I’m not saying it doesn’t need a nerf either. (Personally I don’t consider it an obvious question to answer, and I’d need more data or calculations to decide one way or the other.) But let’s say someone said “yes, Hound Hunter needs nerf, but Hound isn’t the card in it to nerf.” Why would that be such a problem to you?
Edit: darn Smeet was working on his own version of my post as I was
So hunter before the hound card was created was a low tier deck. They gave hunter a whole bunch of expensive late game cards that are quite powerful. Unfortunately hunter has no way to survive long enough in the game to play a long strategy. There are two solutions to this problem. You either reduce the cost of all the expensive cards and create a major issue in power or you create a card that bridges their turn 6-10. They decided on the bridge in the form of the hound.
Hunter doesn’t have any real face decks any longer and the quest is gone. They have been a class since rotation looking for an identity and a playable deck. The creation of one card gave them a deck. Is it an unbeatable meta monster? No it’s not because there are plenty of decks that beat it. It just happens to be a popular deck mainly because it’s a cheap and easy deck to assemble.
Once you get out of the dumpster ranks it levels off and you see far more diverse decks. This goes right back to skill being the issue. If you cannot make it out of the dumpster ranks you need to change your deck, strategy or play patterns. Nerfing one card because you have an issue with it is NOT the answer.
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In any case I mostly agree with this sentiment. I’m not sure I agree all the way though. Hound Hunter was VS’s #1 deck for D4-1 in the last Data Reaper, and even in top Legend the deck is above 50% winrate if just barely. I think I’m a little more inclined to argue for the “nerf tap” than no nerf at all here. Like a -2% winrate type of nerf.
I’d still stand with you against anyone who thinks this is the kind of thing that needs a nuclear nerf strike from orbit. It does not.
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If I were to target it (the druid nerfs did help the deck’s win rate a bit at high legend), I’d probably put a cap on the size of the copied minion in companions, so 2x 16+ attack krushes don’t happen.
Like, make it a fixed 5/5 copy or something.
Can’t happen soon enough. Having the entire early and mid game invalidated by a single card is really degenerate.
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If we even happen to nerf hound hunter.
Just reduce hollow hound attack by 1.
It’s really that easy and maybe even a little too strong of a nerf.
I find it a little above the curve but nothing that just destroy the game balance.
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Yeah, the game definitely needed more strong healing options to deal with decks like burn mage, shadow priest and frost DK. Hollow hound isn’t doing anything outrageous at 6 Mana. The deck isn’t destroying the meta, and I’d argue that the worst feels bad thing the deck does isn’t the healing, but the auto-win potential of companions.
Hound doesn’t even fix it’s matchups against all aggression based strategies, seeing that enrage warrior, unholy DK, and even totem shaman give hunter some trouble still.
A rush minion that clears the board and heals you to full isn’t “interactive” any more or any less than a turn 10 combo that wins the game.
The limiting factor of combo decks is their ability to sustain themselves to get to their win condition. The win condition needs to win the game. Nerfing the win condition is not the answer unless you are someone who has a bias that needs combo not to be a thing. If they get their hounds off, that’s how they roll and you get back in line.
Like you couldn’t be any more transparently full of excrement than your last post about nerfing the literal part you lose to rather than the part that allows them to consistently get there.
Again, when everyone else loses you call it a skill issue, when you lose it must be a problem.
No one should take you seriously on this topic. No one.
That’s the literally point of a combo deck, though. To win with their combo.
Tell me you don’t want the deck that beats you to win without saying it.
And you didn’t hear a peep about the hound otk because it wasn’t a pain in the deck of high ranking players, who are babies when they lose more than any other rank.
No one cares. Not honestly relevant to this topic.
Hound hunter has a 98+ meta score on VS at every single rank that is not top 1k.
Nerfing the one card that makes the issue, which you literally tell me that this one card made hunter what it is, is exactly the answer.
It doesn’t need the warrior treatment, but taking off an attack would go a long way to helping things.
Again, my first post was that this card will get nerfed, it’s just a matter of when.
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It’s much more interactive.
Your minion positioning, where you drop locations/taunts… There’s a lot you can do to mitigate hollow hounds if you are trying to.
32 damage from king Krush? Well, really you just have to hope they drew king krush early and can’t use it.
“Kill them before they combo” is the weakest argument to a combo being ok. It’s admitting that it is dumb, but only acceptable if the deck can’t protect itself.
Decks should be able to sustain themselves if desired to get to late game plays. The late game plays should not be strong enough to end the game almost regardless of the current board or health states.
Combo decks don’t make hearthstone better, because they are inherently the least interactive way to win in a game with zero chance to prevent them other than “lol kill the opponent first!”
Even in the trash tier ranks on HSR, hollow hound is one of the lowest win rate cards for hunter to draw and play. It’s a reactionary recovery card. It’s not pushing to win the game. It’s one of the least likely cards to be nerfed in the deck. It just filled a gap hunter was sorely lacking.
If I could note just a moment here, since I have passions and opinions like everyone else, but not the depth or time of you all’s wonderful research and dedication; Not all classes run a taunt or location, if both.
I’m not going to list many actual or viable arch types but Rogue’s nerf to their location has it see less play, same for Warlock. Granted, this is suggesting non-thaddius warlock.
I can’t see personally, Deck Tracker or not, when Hunter pulls Hound; only assume it’s when Breeder is played, if not Krush. However I know they have the fact to do so, so long as one is still in the deck and Breeder is played. And that’s a copy.
No amount of me trying to keep a minion-based deck or board can ultimately prepare me for that at turn 5 (coin) - 6 lest it be just presumption and just forfeiting brain power to thinking Hound is always in hand, just when needed.
I’m likely bad at the game, though do my best to hit diamond each season I can; I just feel a 6-mana, cleaving heal 9+body is a bit much.
its not about who runs what
every class has access to these things, its the player, in this case, YOU, choosing not to run these things
you find hound to be OP
so you must be running into it a lot
so if you see it a lot
and you dont like it
why dont you run the things that counter it?
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You can’t stop either one on your turn without a secret or okani. They are exactly the same amount of “interactive” my man.
This is a preference, not a fact.
We have now officially gone from me saying “this card should have one less attack” to you saying “combo decks are unhealthy for the game.”
You sound like this king has hurt your hind end one time too many.
You can stop a good hound play by dropping a taunt on the side of the board, or having your minions have more health than it clears, or by not setting your minions up for good cleaves.
Your options for stopping Krush combos is to make sure your face is never open to attack from charge.
That’s a much harder bar to reach.
Hound doesn’t end the game, Krush does.
It’s not the same level of interactive.
Eh, that’s largely why tier 1 combo decks are almost never left alone, and are nearly always nerfed to the point of non-existence.
I mean, it’s what decides the mirror most of the time, and it’s why the deck has a positive win rate against control decks because they can’t stop it.
Nothing about that companions play becomes less frustrating just because the hunter loses access to healing.
Plus… Hound is still one of the lowest win rate cards in the deck by all metrics in those lower brackets (all I can see in HSR), which makes it an odd choice for a nerf.
This is working as intended.
I don’t find the play frustrating, though. If I am vulnerable to it or I didn’t win already, then gg and get back in line.
We will have to agree to disagree. They can heal out of trouble and clear up boards with a rush/cleave/lifesteal that isn’t a legendary and that’s a pile of crap.
I am not going to be offended by a combo that comes down on ten.
Yeah, but healing / board clearing IS interaction against a burn game plan. Removing that would be making the game less interactive, as it would just be making their one option to interact with burn/chip damage less useable.
Companion kills aren’t even really a combo, it’s just a single card that deals 16+ damage if you haven’t drawn Krush yet, and sets up another 16 through Stranglethorn heart. (Although priest is getting a titan card to negate that part soon, which may be able to flip the matchup for them)
Shutting down how a deck survives to play strategies can shut down the entire class’ ability to use late game strategies at all.
Weakening what they do when they get to high Mana points leaves other strategies intact and leaves hunter with more options in how to build a deck.
That’s why I’ll always prefer them to nerf the pseudo OTK over the thing that lets them not die for a few more turns.
Yes but Hunter will just buff it for 9 Mana with Bananas, which will clear most big minions even without a taunt in the way, or positioning.
Even priest with Whirlpool, which coincidentally does counter Hound by luck, doesn’t get to keep anything on the board after use, unlike Hound with cleave, heal for 18, for 9 mana.
I’m done listening to your passive-aggressive and frankly, bad attempts at advice. This is the last reply from me you’re getting. I feel more like a doofus not remembering how to mute people in the forum when all they do is instigate instead of contribute, unlike Smeet and NeonGhost who have been carrying on the status of this card and Hunter in a healthy matter.
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cheezuscrust#1567
Don’t nerf this card. Remove it.
A Lifesteal minion with a Cleave effect, should not cost less than 8 mana at least!
People come here complaining about the meta not being board centric and then defend Hollow Hound as a card. Maybe the reason that it isn’t a board based meta, is this despicable card.
Hunter has so many ways to create copies and buff this card, it is insane. You won’t find a more one-sided game than playing a Midrange deck and your opponent is Hunter.
Nerf it to the absolute ground so that it never sees the light of day again.
Don’t keep questioning why Standard feels boring and agitating when cards like these are around. And we will need to deal with it for the next 2 years. Only out is for the card to get nerfed so hard that it will never be played again.
Make it 10 mana and keep the same statline solely for this card to completely dissapear off the meta game.
Absolute circus this game has become. Everybody gets a Reno effect. Plain disgusting.
At this point the matchup always is: Who can kill the other first from hand. Great meta game you have created Blizzard.
Incoming the “it’s a 7 classes meta game actually” … Clueless you all are that say this.
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