Can we please decrease rng effect in game outcome and please nerf all discover cards!
We saw in the past how many pro players abandoned this game due to rng. And discover is just too powerful. When it was introduced, when you discover you lose tempo and now you gain tempo and discover and generate card and few other thing. It is just to powerful and on top of everything it is mechanic that is preventing you to put oponent on their hand and know what they might have. Too powerful!
Believe it or not, due to how statistics and probability work, having more rng makes for more consistent win rate, not less.
Rng on top of rng on top of rng makes every rng layer less damaging to your win rate because the more times you try, the more times you hit so things get cancelled out.
When you remove rng layers, the game becomes the good old dice throwing game, when you always know exactly what your opponent is holding and has in their deck, and he knows the same for you, and the first guy to draw their win conditions wins the game.
It’s like playing a high/low game with cards where you just draw cards and turn them over to see which one is higher.
I do understand your point, however, and I even agree with it. I liked the old hearthstone more.
So my oponent has every rng in his favor (or i do), and that makes it more fair? I mean, your skills matter when it is all up to rng? And believe me it happens more than you think. And what you say with old game, yes, there is rng for draw, but only that, this way you still have topdeck effect and a lot rng in place which can just turn game that you are sure you won 100%. And while that is fine but not to happen in this rate!
For instance Prison of Yogg-Saron, just played game today where i was sure i will win and i was faced against this casting Drakefire amulet, Sunset volley, one small card generation and board dmg. And like i said it is ok if it happens sometimes but it happens too ofter (guess its programmed like that to have more “fun”).
You mean the Joust mechanic?
Haha yes, exactly, only I was talking about a card game we used to play as kids which is basically just a Joust mechanic on repeat.
If deck has 52 cards, you and your opponent get 26 each and you just Joust until you burn through all of them. Each Joust win means you get both of the cards. When you burn through all the 52 cards, whoever won more Jousts is a winner.
That’s sorta like what Hearthstone used to be, and I must say, there is some appeal in that. Being on a 3-turn timer and relying on 2/10 cards to win meant the games used to be much more intense than now, as you can’t really count on a specific card being the winning one anymore (due to so much rng).
So my oponent has every rng in his favor (or i do), and that makes it more fair? I mean, your skills matter when it is all up to rng? And believe me it happens more than you think.
Yes, it makes the game more fair. But it does shift the mental skills one needs to be more successful. For example, because so many winning cards are locked behind additional layers of rng, you need to have:
a) better memory/recall of all the possible combinations you can get,
b) faster probability calculations to determine the expected value of each move.
Before, you used to just memorize the algorithm of how to play against certain decks and wait until the card draw rng determines who wins. It was much simpler, much more intense.
The game now is much more cognitively demanding, and you have a lot more things to do in a same amount of time per move as before.
A lot has changed. Even though it should mathematically speaking be more fair, I completely agree with you it’s not as fun as it used to be, but that might be subjective.
Now you’re just nitpicking examples, that’s a no-no.
The thing is, most of the spells are useful for the person who casts it, which means that a person who uses Yogg-Saron has a higher chance of hitting High against you, than you have of surviving it. It’s just common sense. If you really hate playing against Yogg saron, I think it’s time you start playing it yourself.
At least that’s what works for me. When I get frustrated by a certain deck or a card, I start playing it. If it’s making me lose (nerves, if not games as well) it will make others lose, too.
Cmon, do not tell me only i experience these kind of things? In my favor or against me. If this happening is some low probability it would be fine, but like i pointed out it happens too ofter to be just pure random and follows real probability.
Cmon, do not tell me only i experience these kind of things? In my favor or against me. If this happening is some low probability it would be fine, but like i pointed out it happens too ofter to be just pure random and follows real probability.
It’s not just you, it certainly happens. But our brain is programmed to remember negative outcomes more easily than the positive ones, because our survival depends on it. It’s called “negativity bias” and it’s a scientific fact - it’s also the reason why you’re nitpicking negative examples now xD
Well, that, and external locus of control (in other words, you prefer to place blame on external factors rather than internal or, as we’re supposed to, both equally)
Even though i said win or lose due to highroll? I mean, cmon, you can not call joust game where you compose your deck and can read your oponent but when you can generate any card or have series of random effect from any other card is more stable and skill involved. You can, but i will not believe you.
Well, I can’t help you with that. I’ve given you all the math and science behind it I knew. Perhaps someone can give you even more math and science to help convince you, but I’m afraid it’s a matter of your decision now.
You need to decide to accept that different perspective, test it for yourself and see if its true. That should mean you use deck tracker of some sort, to have insight into statistics. I use the one you get from Overwolf, can’t remember the name.
From my point of view, it seems you’re frustrated. Why, I don’t know. Something isn’t going the way you expect it to and you decided to blame the rng and game changes.
I agree with you the game used to be more fun. But that is entirely subjective. People whose personality is opposite to yours and mine enjoy the game better as it is now. So that’s not the real source of your frustration.
Something else is. Either something in your personal life, or you just don’t like the game anymore but aren’t aware of any alternative.
I suggest thinking along those lines to find out!
What is the math on card i just told you about? And i can give you more examples but you will say it is an outlier. And again, i am telling you it is not pure random based on probability. We know for sure they adjusted some discover options appearance, se they can and they did play with “random”. So i am telling you this is intentional to have more “fun” game in their opinion. Again, nothing intentional against certain players or so, never said that.
And i can give you more examples but you will say it is an outlier. And again, i am telling you it is not pure random based on probability. We know for sure they adjusted some discover options appearance, se they can and they did play with “random”. So i am telling you this is intentional to have more “fun” game in their opinion. Again, nothing intentional against certain players or so, never said that.
Feel free to post additional examples if that’s what you want. Maybe you’re right and I’m not. I’m just following Occam’s razor: if there’s multiple hypothesis possible at some point, I go with the easiest one that makes sense.
In this case it’s negativity bias.
I just don’t understand the issue if Yogg saron does the same to you and against you. Doesn’t it cancel out the luck factor then?
You literally picked a swingy card to prove your point about inconsistency in a game which is mathematically more consistent than it ever has been. Even the top tier deck rates prove you that.
It used to be a deck was considered broken if it had 55% win rate. The decks nerfed last night? They had 66+%!
That’s ridiculous consistency-wise.
I think the issue actually stay on discover and copy cards. I am sick and tired to play against opponents which end up with 5/6 copies of disrupting or very powerful cards.
At this point priest, rogue and druid they are out of control.
Every time meta has an issue is due to copies of powerful cards rather than cards power level in general.
PLEASE DISCONTINUE DISCOVER AND CXOPY CARDS!!!
It is not that we both win a game with yogg swing, it is that swing that is issue. I do not want to work for my win planning steps up front and reading oponents hand (example) just to lose to 1 cards rng. Again, it happens a lot. Again with treasures, lets say common treasure has dmg, heal, coins. So lets say you need to remove threat, you play excavate and hope you hit dmg, if you do you take over tempo if not you “wasted” your mana. How many cards give you random card (from any class) so there is no control in that, literaly anything can happen. I am fine with that but with every expansion they put more of that and game is becoming joust type thing like you mentioned, roll the dice and see what happens…
So lets say you need to remove threat, you play excavate and hope you hit dmg, if you do you take over tempo if not you “wasted” your mana. How many cards give you random card (from any class) so there is no control in that, literaly anything can happen.
The trick is to know all the possible scenarios from playing each of the cards you mentioned, to assign them expected value and to pick the option with highest expected value. Purely economical.
If you’re not ready to invest the mental energy you need to do that, then I guess, yeah, roll the dice and see what happens xD
But it’s really a one-time mental investment. Once you learn each of the scenarios, you know the values and decisions to make by heart. It’s the same as in Poker, once you learn the ranges and probabilities. In fact, the more rng you have in a game, the more that games approaches Poker in its’ playability, and Poker is all about knowing a possible range your opponent has, and your probability against that range for every board outcome.
That’s what it takes now to win HS.
Or just play an aggro deck without RNG, I guess xD
I’m fine with both. I really, really enjoyed playing Rainbow mage 2.0 until it became tier 3 deck. It’s the only deck I’ve ever had 13 wins in a row in Legend. Plenty consistent for so many card discovery and rng 
Now I just rock treant druid and buff pally, who literally have 1 rng card to worry about (5 mana card draw for druid and boogie card for pally, the rest aren’t that impactful)
I agree about the power level of discover cards now. When it was introduced, you’d have like 2 mana 1/1 discover a 3-cost card. 4 mana 3/3 beast discover a beast. 4 mana 3/4 mech if you control a mech discover a mech. Now we get like 4 mana 4/4 naga who discovers a spell 3 or less for a 1 mana naga to cast. We have 4 mana 4/4 discover one of 3 cards that you’ve literally chosen while making your deck. And now the 3/4 mech is also a beast and also reduced to 3 mana because reasons I guess. There used to be a downside to discover. Now there is no downside.
Blizz however wants it this way as it makes the games easier to steer toward one player winning or losing based on whether the algorithm wants a player to win or lose. It’s unfortunate they chose this path but what can we do? We are mere peons
How is this economical when i gave you examples which win game that you had to lose?
You say that you could have predicted players has Prisoner of Yogg and he would clear my board and summon 3 big minions on his side while generation more cards? And do not compare it to poker cause it has 0 similarities! And i am not exagerating.
What you gave is another case study bad beat. I’m talking about decision making in the long-run not during 1 specific game. You can’t win every game xD
It literally has many similiarities. What you’re doing with Yog Saron examples is showing examples of a “bad beat”, a beat where you were highly favorited to win, but somehow lost. Sounds pretty much like a bad beat story from poker.
But in all the games which include rng, it’s not about winning every game, it’s about consistently making a choice which has a positive expected value in the long run.
In the long run, more Yog Sarons will fail to swing a board than actually swing it. But of course from time to time it’s going to single-handedly win a game. It happens.
At least i gave you an example, i gave you more. You were talking about math and poker… You can not just ignore my examples while giving none! I can say this game is scripted, every outcome is decided before game, thats my proof. (Thats how your arguments look like). You look to me like you just learned some probability and math in college and you take this oportunity to show off. I am sorry but thats how it looks to me cause it has nothing to do with this games mechanic and i elaborated why i think so, not just with that example.
You’re right. Once you learn something, it’s hard to imagine what it’s like to not know that, to explain it properly.
If you have a concrete example/situation which I can help calculate the optimal decision for, please go ahead and post it.
I’m just not interested in coming up with both examples AND free instructions how to play xD
But I’m willing to offer coaching for money 
Judging by your name, chances are, we speak the same language, too! (I’m from Balkan)