I’ve already explained in detail why it’s not the issue. You can keep ignoring it and keep regurgitating this point all day long if you want though. Yes it’s strong. No, it’s not the heart of the problem. Original mana cheating is.
1 Like
We aren’t downplaying it’s importance.
You’d delete the archetype from competitive play if you reverted Conman.
That’s not necessary. Nerfing Skyla is enough. She is both the reason Conman is as strong as he is, AND is the outlier in game blowouts.
1 Like
No deck should depend on 1 card to be viable.
No card should be powerful enough to carry a deck
You both clearly listed several examples where con man was the reason for winning games.
You even pointed out that you would rather have king tide or skyla pulled by rat in control matchups because conman is more relevant
It should not function the way it does currently in mage
If the orb version takes off as the most popular list, it will only become more obvious how much of an outlier conman is.
I will continue to regurgitate the same point because it is relevant and you guys are clearly being dishonest with yourselves and others about how essential the repetitive nature of conman is to the sucess of the deck
Key cards being the power of decks has existed since MTG was created.
I mean we can go even further and just say a regular deck of cards and look at the Joker.
1 Like
Pretty much every tier 1 deck has more than one card that if deleted would kill the archetype.
1 Like
When you play conman to follow up a big spell you win
When you dont you lose
That is just bad design, unhealthy for the game and anti-agency
That is how the deck functions and i wish they would make more of the mage cards meaningful and worth playing rather than leaning so hard on a repetitive follow up play
Conman is the problem like Leeroy is the problem in Handbuff Paladin.
It might be the good finisher, but it’s not the enabler.
You wouldn’t nerf Leeroy, you’d nerf the weapon.
You shouldn’t nerf Conman, you’d nerf Skyla.
I do not see what you are trying to accomplish here. Yes, Conman is a strong and very important card in this tier 2 deck, but it’s not the engine that drives it to victory—that is reserved for the cards that make it possible to cheat out the big spells in a timely manner. If you go look at mulligan and winrate stats for each card at HSGuru, you will see that Conman tends to be the 5th or 6th strongest card in the deck. That’s what the data tells us.
Not true, I win plenty of games without ever playing a Conman with screenshots to prove it:
https://imgur.com/a/U0AqrNe
https://imgur.com/a/JVrKJGG
https://imgur.com/a/N4aoWJX
Notice that in the match against Jep that I unable to play a big spell until turn 7 or 8, but I manage to win without playing the Conman in my hand.
Yeah…
It’s definitely not the craziest thing around. It’s definitely strong though, and I understand not liking the play pattern. It doesn’t need nerfs though.
Also, new peak with the deck is 50 legend, and I put Norg back in over Griftah. It’s too strong in the mirror.
2 Likes
ive seen those stats. They also say surfalopod is the 2nd best card after skyla and these guys will adamantly argue that it is bad in the deck. They could be right about that, im not arguing that point, it does seem nice to have early removal.
Mulligan stats do not account for what i am describing. I understand the deck needs to cheat out a spell first. I dont even think you would keep it in the mulligan most of the time anyway, you probably want too much other stuff to start off the game and are hoping to draw into it.
What i am saying if the deck plays a big spell early into conman, the frequency that it wins off of that 2 turn play is much higher than in any other scenario. So much so that it carries the deck. I bet you win over 70% of the time or more when that occurs
Now with orb being run too… that is even more potential for value that conman offers.
I would love for you guys, if youre keeping track, to tell me how often you win when conman is played after a big spell turn
There are several instances listed in the thread above that openly state conman plays that basically end the game.
They will say “it’s barely better than pupil” and then after a bit of grilling the tune changes to
xD. A 4 drop rare from another class should not be that impactful and it should not function how it currently does. It shouldnt just be a straight tempo value generator for any card you already play in your deck.
I would rather they left skyla the way it is now and change how this card works in mage and palidan
Eh, the set is designed that the class barriers dont really exist. Demon hunter gets more out of the set’s priest cards. Shaman uses sasquawk best, druid was using the mage cards better for a while…
Sure, there’s design things about it to be grumpy about, but statistically, the card is fine. You have to find a good card to play before it, then you need to play conman immediately after that card with nothing in between.
The card has enough awkwardness built into it already. The only real issue with it is that it’s weak in rogue, but that’s not really much of a reason to destroy decks that built around the new version and aren’t really broken because of him.
The common big spell mage isn’t even a tier 1 deck, neither is the pipsi paladin using it.
They aren’t going to leave the turn 4 auto win card (Skyla) alone and hit Conman instead.
3 Likes
To be clear, i dont want them to destroy BSM. I think it is a fun inclusion to the meta in most cases. I dont necessarily want it to be the center of the meta either though lol
I just wish they would make it so decks in general had the power of cards spread out among all of them.
I dislike when a deck functions based off of the power created by 1 or 2 cards
Well, in the BSM decks that run 2x Surfalapod and do not run Orb, Surfalapod tends to be 2nd best card on mulligan, and 5th best from drawn win rates.
I do not think Surfalapod is a bad card, but I do think that BSM with Orb is a stronger deck, and that’s the point that players like Smeet and Schyla are making.
The devs also tend to be data driven (and dust refund conscious), which means there are probably several cards they would nerf before touching Conman. I am not saying there are not concerns about Conman’s design. Just because the card does not seem broken now does not mean that it won’t be broken later, like when the next expansion comes out. I am already well known for being outspoken about balance, powercreep, and bad design issues, because I think those things hurt the game.
I do not see a lot other players singling out Conman to be nerfed over other cards in BSM. Why do think that is?
1 Like
Pretty much any nerf to it will delete the deck at top legend entirely. It’s already borderline tier 3, and orb variants are looking potentially stronger overall. By the matchup data, BSM doesn’t even really need a nerf, but the play rate is too high, and Skyla is noticeably the most broken card in the deck, so she is likely the target to try to tap the play rate down.
It’s just one of those decks that’s not really super broken, but is warping the game through play rate. The worst feels bad moment is the turn 4 Skyla, so that’s probably the thing that’ll take a hit to make less mages pick the deck.
1 Like
Nah, we were right about Surfalopod and they are right about Conman. Both are support cards/win more cards, not the triggers
Literally noone in top 1k plays Surfalopod anymore. The one game I saw it today was against a 2.2k player (God knows why)
How do you play a 10 mana spell on 6 or 7?
Watercolor Artist discount
If you play it on 3, tsunami costs 6 on turn 7.
but if you dont draw it
nothing happens
The deck is very consistent. You have Tide + spell combos, you have Skyla + coin/snake oil + spell combos, you have watercolor only discount …
The games where NONE of those happen eventually are rare
Even then, with Smeet’s deck you have enough value to stall and then Orb finishes the job no matter what
except when its not
ive had multiple game in a row of drawing multiple large spell and then sckyla hits orb
and now im dead