Now compare those measly tools against what they have now.
I did quit. I returned last August out of boredom with current games.
About to quit again, but for entirely different reasons. The bots are out of control.
It’s in EVERY aggro deck. I seem to recall a card getting hard nerfed recently because it was in EVERY control deck.
Renathal not runs only in Control decks.
Actually there were more midrange/combo decks than control decks running it.
Most Control decks are usually better with 30 health lists.
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That’s because Renathal also allowed those faster decks to stuff in more draw tools to go through their deck just as quickly as if they had only 30 cards. It wasn’t a detriment. People tend to focus on Ren being a control tool because of the added health, but he really was used pretty liberally in many styles.
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So we have Beast Hunter, Questline Hunter, and Ramp Druid as the type of “Control Decks” you want to see more of in the future?
Renathal is a Control killer. If Renathal is good you can’t play Control because you will always get out valued by midrange.
In any case, Peasant isn’t in every aggro deck either. It’s not in Unholy DK or Frost Mage.
don’t illusions yourself the game is till aggro land … it’s for this reason i have quited the game
What you’re saying here is that turn 1 doesn’t deserve to exist.
Because I think you’d agree that, for turns that should exist, forcing your opponent to react to your plays is good gameplay, a lot better than not allowing reactivity. Right? Back and forth good?
So what you’re actually saying here is that the game should effectively start on turn 2 (or later), that your opponent making plays that actually matter on turn 1 — making the game effectively start earlier than you’d like — is bad manners, and that any designer who dares give players the tools to make the first turn of the game relevant is bad at their job.
I have a counteroffer. If you were right, turn 1 wouldn’t even exist. Because it does, you are the one who is being asinine here. Play some answers that cost 1, every class has them.
I mean it’s a huge oversimplification. But honestly turn 1 & 2 shouldn’t matter as much as they do right now. Peasant on it’s own isn’t the issue (I think Trogg is probably a bigger issue, but Trogg is also a check to a lot of the SUPER greedy combo-type decks), but if you have too many cards like peasant it hurts the game. And I’m including cards like Grave Strength, Herald of Nature, Pride’s Fury, etc. etc. that capitalize on a board lead. They’re fine, but there’s too many of them in individual classes.
The game is just too front-heavy (and back heavy, but the back is weak right now). Games are decided by like turn 4-5 because unless you have hard control answers you can’t respond to a hawkstrider turn 3 into a nerubian turn 4 or whatever. So either you’re running super aggressive decks too that top out on turn 7-8 or you’re dead a lot of the time.
Then past that there’s all the perma buff cards. Sure you lived through my first sow the soil, but you didn’t immediately clear the whole board and play your own board so now I’m just gonna buff it even more and kill you and you’ll never catch up because you didn’t have the perfect answer turn 1-2.
And then even hard control is more or less dead because even they don’t have enough answers. And still can’t outvalue them because they have enough cycle + resource generation not to run out even if you respond perfectly to their threats.
That’s the current meta. It’s very similar to really old metas (like Gadgetzan) except with value; some people like it, I don’t really.
And honestly at the root of it is just too much value generation across the board. But I dunno how you fix that because people “feel bad” when they run out of cards. Even though it basically allows the control vs. aggro paradigm to even exist. Combo is too greedy, control is too greedy, aggro is too greedy. There’s very little real sense of resource management.
Why? Seems to me that there should be plenty of good turn 1 aggro plays. I think that there might be an issue if this wasn’t mirrored on the control side — by which I mean, there should be good 1-cost removal like First Flame, Mortal Coil, etc to answer back with. But assuming there isn’t some archetype bias, no, the game should be full of turn 1 plays, and you should be punished if you can’t answer your opponents’ turn 1 play because you were too greedy to include cheap answers.
What does “control” mean to you? Because I don’t think it means what I think you think it means.
“Control” is emphatically NOT “run my opponent out of cards and watch them do nothing each turn.” I know some people enjoy that kind of thing, but the word for those people is sadists. Yes, it feels bad to basically hit a point in the game where you’re dead not from damage, but from being out of gas, and yes, the game design solution to that is to give aggro players legitimate outs to come back in the later turns of the game, a hope for that next topdeck or Discover, instead of having no outs drawn dead. What you seem to want is straight up toxic.
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I just want to hear a proposal on what an acceptable neutral 1 drop is. If 2/1 tribeless maybe do a thing is too good, and a textless 2/1 is too bad (at least murloc raider has a tag) then we need to buff the stats. 2/2? we had one in Descent of Dragons…it didn’t see all that much play and you never see it in wild. 2/3 or 3/2? Aggro haters would be outraged.
You have to use a card to remove it. So? Control late game blows there’s away. Going 1 for one in the very early is a win for control. It’s the midgame where you need to kill several things with one card.
First of all there are 3 types of minion we should be aware talking about this:
Minions that do something when they enter board.
Minions that do something when they live.
And minions that do something when they die.
If we are talking about beating piles of removal the last is the most important.
Even more if that thing they do when dying gets to be something in the lines of putting another minion into play but not only.
Reality is that this game has removal a little too easy people liking or not.
It would be good to see more cards that not give a damm to spells or otherwise we gonna be stuck with deathrattle as the only way to deal with it forever.
IMO 1-drops like Flame Imp, Leper Gnome, Fiery Bat, Mistress of Mixtures/Zombie Chow/Armor Vendor are great. You can throw them down for early tempo and they don’t snowball from turn 1.
Irondeep Trogg, Arms Dealer, original Mana Wyrm, Tunnel Trogg, original Undertaker, are 1-drops that close out games by themselves because if you don’t kill them immediately you will pay the price. Hence why all but Arms Dealer got nerfed (he is still new). Irondeep Trogg on turn 1 going first can still be a victory even post nerf because of all the other cards in the decks that play it.
Are you putting peasant in the same class as all those cards? lol.
To me peasant is literally as weak as you can make a value based 1 drop without being useless to aggro. So if even THAT is too good, then we just want our game to be rock paper scissors forever. We had that in Sunken City and it was garbage.
Oh I forgot Peasant, no I would put him in the first class. Just my personal take there. But playing cards and having cards are not the same, he can be great value for a 1-drop but doesn’t win the game by himself like the ones in the second paragraph.
Agree with you there. Irondeep Trogg was a sticking plaster meant to combat decks that ignored the board (which is what people thought they wanted) but sometimes the cure is worse than the sickness. Some real weird design choices in the last year or two but Peasant is most definitely not one of them.
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I constantly forget that this is the name of the card, and always call it Tunnel Trogg, which of course is the Shaman Trogg I can “never remember.” Guess I’ll edit my first post to make sense now…
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This is why the game has so much polarity, though. At the moment control generally sucks, just because of circumstances but control shouldn’t have just purely reactive amazing board clears and efficient response cards, they’ve been phasing those out this year so control kinda sucks. They should have cards like zombie chow or mistress of mixtures or tar creeper or lone defender or plated beetle that trade well so there is some back and forth. With limited early game removal, but there’s a ton of early game removal. Death Knight can run like 3 cards that cost less than 3 and deal 3 damage, even with the rune system.
Turn 2? Turn 3? Sure. Turn 1 is way too fast and it’s why the game has such a low curve right now. Most decks don’t even bother with 4-5 drops because they’re too slow. Then there’s like Thornhill Defenders that just protect your early game board super effectively.
That is exactly what control is. Control is using your resources better than your opponent and then outvaluing them when they’re weak and they’ve run out of stuff. If they don’t want that to exist, they don’t want control to exist.
You shouldn’t have to run your opponent to fatigue to win that sort of game as a control deck (outside MAYBE control vs. control). If you dump your hand pressuring your opponent, you should be vulnerable to your opponent having more cards than you. That’s just basic.
Peasant on it’s own is fine for the most part. Having a bunch of ways to buff peasant and press an advantage isn’t I don’t think, but the issue is if the game goes long enough aggro can’t just piece a lethal together because all the late game control tools are so strong. It’s just an example of an aggro card that keeps generating value.
Like I think Crooked Cook is a much fairer card because it’s 2 mana even though it’s probably better overall. Slitherspear is fine too because it scales but only for one turn.
They’ve done a pretty poor job balancing the late game, as I see it.
Ubiquitous neutral 1 drops are questionable I think.
Well it’s been legit outclassed because they made 2/2 a standard statline for 1 drops, but it saw play in DoD and afterward in a lot of aggro decks, just not every aggro deck.
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No, it’s saying that 1 drops, since they are so cheap, should be something you can ignore if they are the only thing on the board. They should only be threatening in large numbers.
A card you can ignore has no value. Your argument is invalid.
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