Hi, so I have been playing since the beginning and there is a card called Animal Companion which is 3 mana to summon a random animal companion (misha, huffer, or leokk). At some point they released a card Call of the Wild (I think that was the name) which was 8 or 9 mana to summon all 3 animal companions (makes sense). Now there is a card called patchwork pals (I think) which gives all 3 animal companions to the hand, with 1 mana discount (so misha, huffer, and leokk are all 2 mana each).
So here is my question and the weirdness, why is it this way? I feel like these mana costs and effects don’t make any sense? Original animal companion, okay, 3 mana, cool. Call of the Wild, 8 or 9 mana for all 3 companions, okay cool. But then patchwork pals is 8 mana total to give on demand animal companion of your choosing, that can also be hand buffed by things like buzzard, I am just wondering why? So here is my main thing…should animal companion go down to 2 mana now? Because otherwise it doesn’t make sense and it’s upsetting. I didn’t even get into all the nuance of it but yeah, animal companion should be 2 mana now, or patchwork pals needs to be 3 mana. Or are we not doing proper balancing for the game anymore?
You have a point for the handbuff thing
But the first animal companion you’ll play will have costed you 4 mana total, more than a single Animal Companion
Playing 2 will break even at 6 mana, same cost as To My Side or 2 Animal Companion
You only benefit from the discount after playing all 3, since you payed 2 mana upfront you only gain 1 mana in the end, which means you’d have basically played a 4-steps Call of the Wild with added flexibility
Of course the flexibility and value are greater with that card, but if your only comparison point is the cost, then that card doesn’t justify a 2 mana Animal Companion
It’s like ignoring the forging cost on forge cards and saying “Cyclopian Crusher is a 3 mana 5/4 rush so Warsong Outrider should be buffed from 4 to 3 mana”
2x2 mana Companions + 2 mana for Patchwerk Pals = 6 mana, 1 card
So, what we have here is a classic example of power creep, nothing more, nothing less.
Besides, it’s natural to expect the discount based on quantity, just like you have in stores. Ofc 3 animal companions should cost less than 3x1 animal companion. It’s just economics.
not power creep, would you say monkey in a barrel is power creep on silverback patriarch?
Two animal companions can summon 2 Huffers and do 8 face damage, a single patchwork pals can not.
The important thing to denote is you also get “nothing” for the first two mana and you are still down 1 mana after you play your first companion, it only is an up side once you hit 6/8 mana as you will control what you get through the game along with you will have 3 3mana minions for 8 mana.
As for hand-buffing as a benefit it turns the deck from agro to midrange/control so you’re switching up archtypes so they don’t fit the same place in builds
Your main post was only about mana cost
My reply was only about mana cost, at least and especially what you quoted.
You literally reply to “You only benefit from the discount after playing all 3” by comparing two 6 mana scenarios where you don’t benefit from the discount, and call it powecreep. Don’t quote if you want to talk about something else…
Factoring in all other aspects requires a deeper dive in the whole mechanic and even a slight meta analysis
But calling this powercreep isn’t really correct
As long as tou need to pay 4 mana to summon your first animal companion, you can’t call it powercrept over a 3 mana Animal Companion
And your example is really biased since there’s a lot of factors you haven’t even considered. What about your available mana ?
2x3 mana Animal Companion, starting on turn 3 : one is summoned on turn 3, one on turn 4.
2x2 mana Companions + 2 mana for Patchwerk Pals starting on turn 3 : none is summoned on turn 3, 2 are summoned on turn 4.
How is a 1 turn delay of your first summon a powercreep ?
How do you benefit from the discount when there has not been a discount ?
By your logic, To My Side and 9 mana Call of the Wild were also powercreeps of Animal Companion
Imagine if you had something relevant to say to actually have a discussion
If you only consider the mana cost, and slightly consider the card value to call something powercreep, it’s mainly showing a lack of understanding of the game mechanics
Yes, they are, because a card is worth more than 0 mana…
Also, you get 3 different companions, which gives you synergy, but if you played Animal companion 3 times, you don’t have that synergy guaranteed.
In every possible aspect except the pure mana cost, those newer cards are all powercrept/all worth more than a single animal companion x the number of them you get
If you don’t understand the concept of a card having inherent value, take a look at why you pay 3 mana to draw 2 cards, or as warlock why your hero power costs 2 mana AND deals 2 dmg to you to draw 1 card.
The answer is - yes - a card has inherent value more than 0 mana.
Are you confusing power creep with value?
I’d agree that the value of call of the wild is greater then animal companion but not that call of the wild is power creep on animal companion
Look at the current meta you could play animal companion but in alot of games(warlock and paladin) will be dead before 9 mana
And the flexibility of a card is worth more than 0 mana too
If you increase the value of the card, and its cost, by lowering its flexibility you are balncing things out. You just end up with different cards, not with a powercrept one
If bigger cards were powercreeps of smaller cards, everyone would just play big cards
Synergy which can be useless. Sometimes you’d prefer having 2 of the same companion… Again you narrow the discussion around specific scnearios instead of considering the big picture and weighting each case
Too bad this topic is about the mana cost
That’s… a terrible example
At least a terrible explanation
Each action in the game has had a set cost at some point in the history of the game.
For a card to cycle itself, it costs 1 mana
For a card to draw an additional card, it costs 2 mana
Arcane intellect draws 2, so it cycles itself and draws 1 : 1+2=3 mana
Same logic applied to OG sprint : cycle+3 draws, 1+2*3=7 mana
The warlock hero power only draws a card : 2 mana. But hero powers are supposed to cost more than what they are actually giving you, so to remain at 2 mana it got a 2hp cost added
I don’t see what your example is supposed to bring to the conversation other than “bundling effects combines the costs”
Actually it’s a good example of how your logic doesn’t work.
Mage has played a lot arcane intellect over the history of the game
Yet rogue never played sprint while expecting to pay it at full cost, even for 6 mana
Strange though, wouldnt’ sprint be a powercrept arcane intellect ? Would it be that having a smaller card is sometimes better than a bigger card ?
But you’re not lowering its’ flexibility with newer cards, you are, in fact, making them higher.
Instead of paying 8 mana for 3 summoned at the same time, you pay 8 mana total and summon them whenever you like. So on top of the lower total mana cost, you also have the added flexibility with patchwerk pals.
Pure powercreep.
So, let me see how this works.
YOU quote “sometimes you prefer 2 of the same”…and then you accuse ME of narrowing the discussion around specific scenarios? LOL
No, bro, it’s you doing it. I’m talking on average, you’re nitpicking specific cases.
You literally made 3 logicall fallacies in one post and then accused my logic of not working.
Welp, that’s it for me xD I try to lower the time I spend discussing with half-wits.
Getting more value is not power creep to me, nor is it to over 90% of gamers, power creep is when a card is better in EVERY aspect.
You are trying to compare situations where the card is better but on turn three call of the wild isn’t better the animal companion so it can’t be considered power creep.
Evil heckler is power creep on booty bay body guard
Miracle salesman is power creep on blazing battlemage
animal companion is three mana for 1 companion patchwork pals is 4 mana for 1 companion there are situations where each are better then the other; pals being better 60%, 70% or even 80% does not make it power creep on animal companion they are two different(yet similar) design spaces
Ok so can you stay focused on the topic please ?
For this quote, you are replying to a message that is about To my Side/Call of the Wild being a powercreep of Animal Companion, not of Patchwerk Pals being a powercreep of Call of the Wild
Also still waiting for an explanation of how a 4 mana animal companion is powercreep over a 3 mana Animal Companion
I’m not nitpicking since I’m not eluding all the other cases. I’m adding them to the discussion. I’m adding weighted counter arguments
YOU are eluding them completely. You basically say it’s always better to have the 3 different companions.
I’m not saying that “since sometimes it’s better to have twice the same, then it’s always better to have them twice”
You not understanding what is written doesn’t mean it’s a fallacy.
But you’re free to disproof my argument on mana costs since you’re the one that brought this to the conversation.
Insulting the people you do not agree with is rarely a sign of high intellect.
When all you can do is belittling once you’re out of arguments that’s just admitting you don’t know the topic you engaged on. If you knew you’d be elevating yourself on it by providing actul cues of how it works, which you haven’t. But thanks for forfeiting.
Don’t discuss too long with yourself, it would be counterproductive
Saying that its balanced because at the end you pay 4 mana for a companion, but its not like that… you have 2 big advantages, one is that you can pay mana in 2 different timelines (turn 1 coin+palls, turn 2 play Misha, 4/4 on turn 2), and second is that you can play a companion of your choosing, which makes a big difference.
Everyone here with the math trying to explain the power creep. Bottom like… its power creeping and I’m sick of it.
So I read some of the stuff and here are some points I forgot to make. First, there is great value in being able to pick and choose when and where you get to use specific animal companions. This alone would make patchwork pals much stronger than animal companion or call of wild. If we were to Balance animal companion (the OG card we all love(d)) then it would need to be a 2 mana Discover an animal companion to summon (pick one of the 3). Of course this is much stronger than current animal companion at 3 mana and random companion. Of course yes you get to hand buff them too, that is another great positive. Ultimately, I just want it to make sense. Also I feel sad that animal companion is no longer auto included in any hunter decks besides maybe Spell Only Highlander ZulJin Hunter (and even then it might be cut, idk). I mean they updated things like Swipe…idk why they can’t/won’t update OG animal companion. Please make it make sense, Blizz
