Squirt’s Analysis

Barbarian
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After some testing on my own, looking at the numbers involved, and seeing Deal use Squirt’s in his 145 MOTE clear, I have come to some conclusions.

At this time, I believe Squirt’s to be the best “max fishing” amulet for all of our fishiest builds- meaning Zodiac Rend, Leapquake, and the now-seldom-played Vile Charge. In each of these builds, Squirt’s would be taken as an alternative to a Hellfire amulet. And it is the general mediocrity of Hellfire amulets that makes Squirt’s an attractive option.

With ZR, a Hellfire essentially lets you swap out two CDR rolls for other dps stats, (by giving you Boon) and assuming you’ve already built to an optimal spec, this is likely to be Str- +2000 maximum. For a low paragon player with, say, 10k Str, this would be a substantial addition, but for that player, they would have already been better off keeping the Str and dropping weapon damage, essentially capping the dps gain of the Hellfire at +10%, maximum. For a player like me, with 26k Str, there would be a 7.7% dps gain, and for a player like Chris with maybe 45k Str, only a 4.4% gain.

With Leapquake, Hellfire lets you pick up Brawler, which is a 10-13% gain, depending on which setup you’re playing.

And with Vile Charge, Hellfire is only able to add a defensive passive.

So in comparison to these very modest benefits, what do we get from Squirt’s?

Well, it depends a little on which build we’re talking about, and of course on rng.

I should make it clear here that the whole idea of using Squirt’s with these builds is to use the benefit while protected by a Shield pylon. You are not trying to achieve Squirt’s uptime by altering your playstyle in any way.

So, obviously, in any rift that doesn’t generate a Shield pylon, the benefit is essentially zero.

But, what about when you do get a Shield pylon? Then you get a significant benefit, and this can combine with other pylons to increase that benefit.

For instance, as Chris pointed out the other day, it is hard to kill elites with ZR, even with a Power pylon. Leap and VC have the same problem: even with a Power, you usually can’t kill yellows you haven’t already whittled down a good ways.

But, with Shield + Power + Squirt’s, you now have a 10x multiplier rather than a 5x one, and at that level of damage you will kill basically anything very quickly. This is also true of the RG, of course, where Power + Shield will shorten the time a lot (and, of course, you will be completely immune to damage for the entire duration of the RG fight).

With MOTE, which gets a significant damage buff from Channeling pylons, due to increased WOTB uptime and more frequent shouts (damage bonus roughly 2x), stacking Channeling + Shield leads to a 4x multiplier. For a demonstration, see Deal’s recent video in which he mows down a half-dozen elites in a GR 145.

VC would get a similar buff from the combo of Shield + Speed, since that build benefits from the additional move speed via Standoff.

So, in all these instances, what Squirt’s does is allow you to stack one significant multiplier atop another, which increases the value of both. And of course, the act of clicking those multiple pylons also spawns multiple elites, giving more progression that can be extracted while your damage is inflated.

And even if you just find an isolated Shield pylon and use it to help execute a few good trash pulls, that is still not bad value. If you look at the value of that damage averaged out over the time span of the whole rift, it works out to a 13% dps gain, equal to or slightly better than what you get from Brawler with Leapquake, which is already the best-fit Hellfire among the 3 builds we’re looking at.

I’ll say again that this is definitely the “fishy” option. If you don’t get a Shield pylon, you get nothing. And extracting the maximum value from this gearing choice entails finding combinations of useful pylons in relatively close proximity.

But still: are you really going to choose 5% more Str over the chance to obliterate the RG with 10x damage?

Finally, let me touch on the issue of the additional damage that can be dealt to you as a result of Squirt’s stacks. This is, in fact, generally a non-issue. All these builds are melee builds that get hit continuously, meaning that Squirt’s stacks will generally remain at zero, most of the time. And that means that while you may not be dealing any extra damage at those moments, you are also not taking any extra damage, either.

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Hmmmmm… [rubs chin contemplatively] …after 300+ crafts I still ended up with a pretty mediocre Hellfire amulet on my non-seasonal Barb. It’s got reasonable CHC / CHD / Physical but an absolutely worthless Passive.

Then I remembered that one of my infrequently used Demon Hunters - Multishot - is wearing a primal Squirt’s, with CHC / CHD / Element (currently Fire, but could be re-rolled to Physical). Perhaps I should steal it from her and put a nice big STR augment on it.

What say you, fellow Barbs?

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Good write up Rage, another productive morning with coffee and a good read.

I’ll have to re-evaluate Squirts again with a different play style. I did a few test runs at 140 and the results were bleh. But that was just taking Shield pylon with a few yellows and a mediocre pull.

Didn’t manage much in terms of dpsing them down with rend, but that wasn’t with a second power pylon to the mix. I can see that as having a big advantage, but oh man is that ever so fishy, lol.

Squirts with just a shield can probably do wonders for 130 gem ups, but max tier it’s kind of useless on it’s own unless you get the mother of all rng and blessed with shield + power on the same map.

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Nice analysis, Rage. When it comes to Squirt’s, it boils down to 2 factors: Do you have a good amulet, and are you willing to bank on required fishing?

For most players, I’m going to say the answer to the first is probably, and the answer to the second is almost certainly. We’re already fishing for optimal rift conditions, and if we get those, Squirts or Hellfire, a successful clear is likely anyway.

Never did find a decent Squirts, though. Might have to log in to snag one. And while I’m at it, maybe blast some XP speeds with Chris.

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I say: give it a try!

Right. Not surprising. I guess I’d put it this way: Squirt’s will be actively harmful maybe 20% of the time (don’t get a shield pylon), bleh 50% of the time (get a shield but not in a very good situation), good 20% of the time (Shield in a good spot), and great 10% of the time (Shield + Power).

In comparison, Hellfire will just be bleh, all of the time. I mean, Chris did his 140 having forgotten to switch his passive, so his Hellfire was basically just a rare. Does that sound like a “must have” amulet to you?

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Here’s a questions. Is Squirt’s a little better suited for Crimsom’s where Boons isn’t even needed because of the high CDR which subsequently leads to more DPS?

I have no stats to support what I’m about say, but experience I that low paragon such as myself, tangibly and practically benefits from Squirt’s in a way that can’t quantified, but is still explainable:

I think more often than not, ones is going find the right density and amount of elites within that 2 minute window for the needed progression that will make the difference between a clear and non-clear. In my 130 clear, I had the right amount of elites, but not the right density when I tapped the shield pylon, and I still progressed well. A couple frames down was a power pylon, it might have been there or might not have been, the progression that I gained could have spawned it, idk, but Squirt’s play a great part in this and might have even played a greater part if that power pylon was there from the start as Rage has pointed out. I’ll leave it up to y’all to make sense of what l’ve written, if it even makes sense at all.:laughing:

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I don’t think anyone is questioning it as the “Maximum potential” route. My concern is that it likely will ruin a few great or perfect runs before it actually pays off. All of this concern is centered around the RG fight. Most RG’s already cause me to sweat because of bare minimum CDR and reduced healing with no density. Any boss that has long pauses between damage we will actually have some uptime on squirts. On the other hand any boss that deals damage continuously or in cycles less then 5 seconds some or all could just be instant RIPs. Obviously we need to get out there and test them but that is my thoughts.

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Chris make a great point here. Is this another reason why Squirt’s might be better suited for CC (as it pertains to WW)? In another thread I shared how I managed to get up 7 stacks on the RG (and not die).

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Random question, does Squirts not cause you to take extra incoming damage? How do you get around that?

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My experience so far with Squirt’s (such as it is) makes it so it’s very difficult to stay alive outside of speed runs, and even then I resort to using Molten to keep up the stacks or I lose them too fast.

Maybe Squirt’s is optimal, but you’re definitely going to be increasing the RNG on fishing such that you’d have to be very lucky to get that perfect rift. I think I’ll stick to my good-enough Hellfire and get a decent (but not top) clear for my paragon.

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Rage and to our other Barbs…

When ya pushing with Squirts or even using it, how often to you drop dead and have to revive? The reason I ask is because Squirts procs my cheat death passives all the time if I use it on nearly any toon.

Cheers

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Using Squirt does not increase your death. Under normal circumstances, Squirt’s stack stays at zero, so I don’t take any more damage.

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Haven’t really done much fishing to push much this season so only have gone as far as 117, but so far if its been the case that both my cheat deaths have been blown and I still end up dying it was a dead key to begin with. Couple RGs have pretty avoidable mechanics like Butcher so that even if I don’t have a Shield Pylon active so I can keep 10 stack for the most part.

But if I do want to keep my stacks on the low side after I blow through my cheat deaths then I usually just roll through a damage pool to reset stacks to avoid death later on.

Also all my Hellfire rolls have been pretty garbage so Squirt’s is my best option for a while.

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For every stack you have, you do 10% more damage and take 5% more incoming damage. So, at 10 stacks, you’re doing 100% more damage and will take 50% more damage from the first thing that hits you.

However, every single time you get hit, the stacks reset to zero. A WW/Rend Barb is getting hit in the face repeatedly all the time in density which means for the vast majority of the time, the Squirts will be at zero stacks, providing no benefit what-so-ever, and no detriment what-so-ever, i.e. completely neutral.

However, when you get a Shield pylon, you cannot take damage, so your stacks rise to 10 and stay there, i.e. you’re doing double damage. Once the shield drops off, the first thing to hit you will do 50% more than it would normally have done, but then you’re back to zero stacks.

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While we are at squirts necklace talk. How do you avoid taking the extra damage? Do you need to play a class, like Wizard, that has a passive shield activated when killing mobs or using the gissard gem for example?

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Well, first, we have to separate out “Pushing Crimson’s” and “DH Crimson’s”. I’m guessing that for you, since you aren’t hard-casting, you don’t need AD on gear and so can stack extra CDR and RCR. But for “Pushing Crimson’s”, built to an optimal spec to clear as high as possible, you actually benefit from Boon even more than Core build does, since IP eats a ton of Zodiac procs. So, for that version of Crimson’s, you would see both a bit more upside (because Channeling Pylons increase your damage), and more downside (because you’re losing Boon, which is more, not less, valuable for Crimson’s).

All that said, it sounds like Squirt’s is working well for you and you’re enjoying the experience. So, keep at it!

Yep, well-put and this whole answer was exactly what I was going to say. Thanks, MB!

Now, I obviously can’t guarantee to anybody that they will suffer zero additional deaths as a result of Squirt’s. On some maps you might have significant spaces between mobs, and in those situations you may get all the way to 10 stacks. But even then, all it takes is one skeleton arrow or one demon trooper mace hit to set those stacks back to zero. And those things aren’t going to kill you with doubled damage, not even close.

So, maybe when you’re getting to a new group of mobs, you have to take a beat to receive one or two little hits before you plunge in front of that Mallet Lord. But in general, your stacks should be at zero, most of the time.

Of course, there are ways you can make trouble for yourself:

If you’re trying to maintain your stacks, that’s no good. And it seems likely that MWG is actually killing you, since it prevents your stack counter from resetting. And it’ll disproportionately prevent the little hits from resetting your stacks, while big hits, like Molten explosions or Berserker hammers, will punch right through your shield and kill you instantly. Not to mention the fact that taking MWG costs you a significant damage gem, whichever build you’re playing.

So: if you’re actually going to use Squirt’s for pushing, the “correct” number of stacks to have is zero, UNLESS you have a Shield pylon.

That’s a reasonable concern. And it seems highly probable to me that there are at least a few RGs where Squirt’s might get you into some trouble. Although there is a sort of flip side to that:

Obviously, if against some boss, every 10 seconds you keep building up to 10 stacks, and then he kills you, that’s very bad. But, if you’re building up to 3, 4, 5 stacks or whatever, and then he hits you, doesn’t kill you, and resets the stacks, you are actually getting a non-trivial damage buff against that boss.

Let’s look at the list of RGs, and see which ones might let you accumulate very many stacks:

So, first category would be bosses who attack frequently, often with multiple abilities, meaning you will probably have 0-few stacks during the fight. In this category I’d put:

Agnidox, Blighter, Bloodmaw, Cold Snap, Erethon, Eskandiel, Hamelin, Infernal Maiden, Man Carver, Perdition, Saxtris, Choker, and Vesalius.

Second category would be bosses who have some significant pauses, where maybe stacks could get built up to max or near-max: Bone Warlock, Crusader King, Ember, Orlash, Perendi, Raiziel, Rime, Sand Shaper, Stonesinger, Tethrys, and Binder.

There are caveats to some of these bosses in the 2nd category, though. Like, once Bone Warlock summons adds, your stacks will probably stay at zero. Same for Binder. Others have very telegraphed attacks you can usually avoid, or block by stunning the boss, i.e. Crusader King, Orlash, or Perendi. And, at least for MOTE, some of these bosses in both categories are probably a moot point anyway, since Ember, Perendi, Bone Warlock, Choker, and probably a couple others are basically unkillable at a high level of pushing (unless, of course, you are using Squirt’s and draw a Power/Shield combo).

And some bosses can 1-shot you even now, like Raiziel. It doesn’t make much difference whether his holy nova “kills you” or “super duper kills you”… you’re still equally dead.

But, that still leaves some bosses where Squirt’s could indeed get you into some trouble. I totally agree with you that further testing will be needed, though I think we have gotten a great initial “proof of concept” from Deal’s MOTE runs (and, note that Ulmaguest’s recent 140 is also using Squirt’s-- exactly the same setup as Deal).

So, I’m really looking forward to seeing what shakes out as we move forward!

Ack, two Phoenixes!

First, lol, you fellas!- read what I wrote, and what MB wrote! You aren’t trying to build up your stacks. You just want them to stay at zero, except when you have a Shield pylon active. And at that point, you get double damage, which is good in and of itself. And if you layer that on top of a buff from another pylon, like Power for WW, Power or Channeling for Leap, and Power or Speed for VC, you are magnifying all those buffs by a lot.

Next: I think one of you guys should really change your name to “Dark Phoenix”… :wink:

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I’ve had several gamer names and 7-9 years ago I got a life changing “event” that changed me, hence why I was kinda reborn, like a phoenix. Hence my name.

Now to my question, was more about the amulet itself and how it works. Cause you will take 50 % more damage, but can you prevent taking damage, so you will only benefit from the damage bonus, like using gizzard gem or like Wizard class having a shield when an enemy is killed

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Taeguk, Trapped, Stricken… dropping any of these for a shielding gem is a mistake.

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I straight up hate this boss. I can never dodge him in time and arcane resists doesn’t do squat against his holy attack. Even though the resist field says arcane/holy, presumably both are the “same” stack of resists.

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I’ve heard varying accounts of how the whole holy/arcane thing works with Raiziel. Some folks say that the “holy” portion of holy/arcane resists only works in PvP. I’ve also heard that classes without the ability to deal holy damage (i.e. other than Monk / Crusader) don’t get the benefit vs holy attacks. Or, maybe all of that is wrong and it’s just that the Raiziel holy nova does a ton of damage.

I have been able to survive it, when running a super-tanky Leapquake setup using Esoteric. But yeah, most of the time it’s just instant death.