Did you even look at the PTR Feedback forum before claiming this?
Let me be clear: These buffs are very good
this PTR i played with the new buffs and it was awesome my favorite build is back
Finally a strong damage barb build without needing a wall and other weird ways to play.
The changes to the set feel pretty good
Finally feel like Barbarian has gone in the right direction
The OP you are replying to made a thread early on with “devs did great” in the title…
Strawman. I was addressing the issue of Superior Attitude in regards to your reply.
I don’t know how your reply of Rend doing damage instead of WW has anything to do with my reply to yours.
I was doing research on prebuff WW build and clears to compare to my PTR clear. And consistently in threads, I just run into superior attitudes. Yours just happens to be the one I was looking at when I wrote my original reply.
Not a thank you? Have you not seen nearly all the current diablo creators positive feedback of whirlwind barb? Not just positive feedback mind you, why don’t you go ahead and look up s19 whirlwind barb builds and see the enthusiasm in these creators voices as well as excitement that barb has just received equalizing treatment to that of wizard, necro, demon hunter, really any other class except monk who needs a few buffs as well, in order to be able to push leaderboards again and not have 1200 para to FARM a t16 in groups, with a speed build, and not die. Speed T16 farming should be accomplished with any decent set with correct rolls and really only ancient weapons since t16 is a 75 GR and is the bare MINIMUM required to even get keys in a quick fashion in order to think about pushing. The entire barb community, as well as many others in other classes including nearly all of my personal friends list, as well as just random people that i met i bountys or gr pushing, have welcomed this build. This puts barb not needing 10k paragon, or in other words 9 hours a day of straight gr pushing, in order to compete. Rather it made it so barb can push with ease such as that of impale, chantodo’s, thorns necro, etc. The lamentation nerf is not called for and the barb community is asking to reinstate the original buff, or at the very least. Nerf it from 200 to 100-150 to still be able to get damage multipliers when giving up a belt that could be used for crimsons or chilnik’s chain.
Basically, the premise the OP presents is that the nerf occurred because the developers were to stupid to recognize that WW wasn’t overpowered compared to other builds.
Nowhere in any of my posts do I say that Rend is overpowered.
Basically, barbs think that the devs don’t understand the numbers so we’ll reply with numbers.
If the premise is the devs do understand the numbers and they think barbs are just in general toxic and unlikable, then presenting numbers doesn’t actually fix that.
That pretty much sums up what a lot of people think about the full buff.
About there being few posts about the nerfs to the wizard within the wizard forum. There isn’t NEAR the amount of wizard enthusiasts posting in there in general. The ones complaining about the nerfs seem to be posting within barb posts more than in their respective forum.
Large heads within the barb community is there, but’s it’s there in any community within all classes in this game and every game. If it’s common in the real world, it will show in games as well.
Fact remains that there has been nerfs to, say, wizard builds…but all the “numbers” point to them still being where barb would be IF the belt didn’t get nerfed at all. Seasonal buff? Barb might benefit from that more than some classes but not all, other class builds will benefit just as much. This should not be used against the barbs wanting the long overdue buff.
There is no argument that’s legit saying “ the barb should be nerfed if the wizard is”, people seem to forget the wizard has had the “op” buff for multiple seasons…hasn’t even started a season for the barbs…let alone the wizard would still be “on par” with their nerfs. So it is a case of “ you nerf my class, I want their class nerfed “. Funny as I haven’t seen much talk about sader and their new buff and I’m glad. There shouldn’t be ANY nerf, but that’s all on blizzard and why the 150 GR is the sacred number.
This is a more condescending attitude. It is almost ironic.
Another condescending response. You have some conflicting attitudes man.
Nowhere have I said that barb nerf was justified in any way. Nowhere have I said that the OP was un-knowledgeable. I have less than 30 posts so it’s easy to search.
My position is this and you can refute any of my points:
Some barbs think that the developers don’t understand the numbers and aren’t looking at all the data - therefore they present numbers as counter argument
Some barbs think that since the developers don’t have all the data that they are using troll data as part of their decision making - therefore they present numbers showing how the troll numbers are wrong
Some barbs think that the developers are biased - therefore you get quotes like replies like this “There is a tide in the affairs of trolls, which always leads to a barb nerf…”
My proposition is this:
If (and that’s a monumental if) the developers were biased, then they didn’t nerf based on troll numbers, they nerfed because they like the trolls more than they like barbs.
The OP you are talking about is one of THE top barb players as well as maining DH and Wiz as well. He knows the game inside and out. He can call out any BS that we come across.
And when it comes to this barb community, it must be the best community such that even wizards are posting in these forums. As one of the posters stated here.
Moreover, barb community and its builds guides are where we help most of the members and there is a general warmth. So that we feel to say “ahhhh a new blood. Welcome”. This is a warm welcome to a new friend. If you claim this to be related to feeling superiority, I find this as a self reflection of your own insecurity for which you are trying to reflect on others.
We know each other as barb community. It has always been this way. If you did not experience this in other forums, too bad for you. But you dont have to corrupt these forums with your toxic replies.
Chiming in to say I completely agree with Ulma in the OP. He’s not just one of the best players on the NA server, he’s a good clan mate and very knowledgeable about the game.
Also:
Yeah, at the risk of sounding corny, I think the sort of comment Pro made is meant as a lighthearted greeting, a joke. It’s also about how we try to build a community culture. The Barb community doesn’t just have long-absent experts like most class forums. Instead, we have an active roster of experts of different builds, and what’s more, we also constantly bring up new experts. We work with international posters to translate build guides and share knowledge. We archive our clears and videos, and we provide general new player resources. So, calling someone “new blood” also means that we hope to see that person stick around, learn from us, and grow into an expert that likewise contributes to the community.
I guess what I’m saying is that we do a lot for the the community, whether they’re Barbs or not. And like any community that gets a lot of the same questions, we sometimes experience a little burn out. Sure, we’ve occasionally gotten snippy, and sure, we’ve occasionally snapped at folk. I’m guilty of it as well. But we’re human, and I’m confident the good we do far, far, far outweighs nitpicking our flaws.
Maybe a better way to put it is this: In the end, I think we have fewer flaws than most game communities, and we do far more for the community than most. We don’t tolerate misinformation, and we’re quick to roast trolls. We have zero patience for people who stubbornly refuse to listen to good advice and/or learn game mechanics. We also have endless patience for new players who listen, learn, and want to grow.
I, for one, am proud to be a member of the Barb community. And I’m extra proud of all the Barbs who have stood in support of buffs.
Keep trying.
Who says?
I also have to admit, being a professor, the way I speak and write has been altered in academic environment. It can potentially sound like superiority etc. However this is due to the academic writing style and it changed how we communicate.
It is not really personal.
Positions 2 and 3 can neither be proved or disproved. Way to take a firm stance.
As for position 1:
It can be inferred that your stance is that Devs know what they are doing, are using the data appropriately, and don’t ever make mistakes.
How many game breaking bugs were identified in PTR and still made it live?
How many nerfs applied after PTR testing, with no further testing on PTR, went live and under performed?
How many overpowered builds went live after PTR testing showed them to be over performing and then had to be nerfed later? Additionally, how many builds received buffs without further testing and went live and over performed?
These are all rhetorical questions, because all of the situations have occurred in high frequency throughout the years.
Why should players accept these faults?
The biggest problem that occurs in the PTR is that the devs make changes and don’t let the players test those changes before the patch goes live which all too often results in over powered and under powered builds going live. Many of these instances could have been prevented if the players were allowed to test the changes in the course of the PTR. Isn’t that why we have a PTR???
If the Rend changes go as is from the PTR, you could potentially have 6 of the 7 classes being capable of clearing 140+, maybe even 142+ depending on Crusader and Barbarian. This would bring a lot of class balance to the game. This would mean the developers would just need to buff Monks for 2.6.8, and after that, any new content or changes to any class and to any build would have specific benchmarks for comparison.
But because all of the Barbarian haters like MicroRNA made dozens of accounts and dozens of threads saying Barbarians were too OP, we’re stuck at square 1. Instead of using actual GR potential, Barb haters made up fictitious numbers and said Barbarians would be too OP and would be an outlier.
So Ulma is 100% correct in this thread.
I agree that Ulma is 100% correct is in this thread. But I don’t think I’m interpreting the original post the way everyone else is.
What I got out of the original post can be summed up in 1 line: “There’s a clear level of bias in people calling Barb to be nerfed.”
The rest of the post is information that supports this conclusion. If this is the case, then all I did in my reply was present 4 reasons why this bias might exists.
So here’s the real question: why do you think the developers nerfed Lamentation?
First Case: If you think the developers weren’t biased then no amount of threads saying Barbs were too OP would have mattered, then the developers made the nerf decision based on something else other than troll posts.
2nd Case: If you think the reason for the nerf was because the developers were listening to biased opinions, then developers would have to be biased too.
If it’s the 2nd case, then perhaps the developers were biased for the same reasons in my first reply.
Or the 3rd case which Shark presents: The developers aren’t perfect and mistakes get made. If that’s the case, the mistake happens in the conclusions they draw from their data analysis and not because of misinformation from “barb haters”
Wow a 10k barb cleared GR140.
Meanwhile 10k Bazooka Wiz is closing in on GR150:
https ://www.bilibili.com/video/av74493064 (delete the space)
Missing just seconds to kill the boss sitting on atleast !!!x5!!! the barbs damage in solo. Not even to mention the x20ish it has over barb in group play!
But sure barb needs a nerf to be back at GR133…
Who knows man. Everyone has bias to some degree or in the devs case maybe being too cautious. Doesn’t help when people spread misinformation and are out right making threads calling for nerfs. The people doing these things were coming from a place of pettiness, you would think the devs would see through it but who knows.
Whatever the case the removal of the multiplier seems to be a knee jerk reaction, given the significance of the nerf. If you are going to nuke a build by that much you would think you would release a PTR patch and let players test it. If it was merely a reduction of the multiplier, which would still upset some, additional testing would not have been necessary. I just can’t imagine the thought process that went on, it was a complete gutting of the build.
This is what leads people to believe that the devs were influenced by the nerf barb bias. The magnitude of the nerf seemed uncalled for and they didn’t give us a chance to test after such a significant change. So it seems like something alarmed them. From what I tested the WW/rend was very strong, didn’t seem OP, but if they felt there was a chance for it being an outlier…a reduction in the multiplier would have been a more appropriate course of action and a complete removal seemed unjustified.
I agree the devs have bias for being cautious. This time, it’s probably a reaction from their last minute Chantodo attack speed buff in 2.6.5. They added the buff after PTR concluded. They overbuffed Chantodos and they now have to nerf it - basically, their numbers analysis didn’t pan out the way they expected it. So now they’re just playing conservative with Rend.
The devs could have minimized the backlash if they were more transparent about which build should reach which GR level.
Don Vu posted this 2 years ago:
" We don’t just look at the Greater Rift level and time cleared. We look at paragon, legendary gems, augments, stats – just a whole slew of data from our Business Intelligence team – and do internal tests of our own. We have a target Greater Rift level with specific paragon, legendary gems, augments, stats, etc. derived from the top clears on Live and PTR and we try to hit that target by tweaking changes over the course of the PTR. Some of the reasons why you saw some specs get buffed, then nerfed, then buffed, then nerf again are because sometimes we don’t hit our target"
Source: https ://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/68856-why-all-this-nerfs
The Devs buffed HoTA, Slam and WW. Everyone assumed that since WW got the best buff, that WW was the build the Devs intended to be the solo push build. They nerfed it so it doesn’t seem like the Devs meant WW to be used for solo push.
So which build do the Devs want to be the push build? That’s the answer I want to hear from devs. What’s the point in buffing 3 builds and not making at least one of them competitive?