A bit selfish I think, let the game die to everyone who has enjoyed it for ages, because I want to get maxed out in a couple of months, then I leave and play another game.
Not everything around being 2021 is good, what we have nowadays, is the law of the minimum effort. you work hard in something, that’s fine, you are lazy and do nothing, also that’s fine and because of that both will get the same reward.
perhaps, those who suggest this change are not that kind of person, but something like the ploot can discourage people to be active in the party because they won’t need to be there to get their loot, they can be around looking for stuff and when the boss is killed go there and pick the loot…
the game as it is, encourage players to be active and follow other team mates to be there to help killing bosses and have a chance to get something as reward. You say any one who did DMG, but how do you measure that? could I throw an arrow and leave and come back later just to pick the loot?. If you can I.e. go throw an arrow to Duriel and then teleport to the town and wait but get anyway a ploot, there will be 2 or 3 guys doing the right things and the rest farming elsewhere waiting the “dumbs” to kill the boss, to come and pick their reward.
Ploot is something that will eventually kill teamwork in most cases and will make trading irrelevant.
I really stated separate loot spawn for people that did DMG to a monster.
Nothing will stop you from playing this game for next 20 years if you wish to do so personal loot or not, its a choice you make.
I have no clue why people are so rock headed, like why the way other people are playing the game is bothering you? Why you even care if someone will just get the loot for free? Is that your problem at all? You can play the game your way, other people will play differently. Its not like this game is perfect and all I see are people denying any changes for the sake of keeping the game annoying and old but with new graphics, just stay with the original D2 and stop bothering other people.
This is not the first game that I see small group keeping developers hostage, and not allowing any kind of changes. Developers should really be less scared of people like that.
I played beta for 2 days and I’m already tired of how old the game feels, its dated and the small quality of life changes didn’t do much to help it. Charms are bad as they used to be, multiplayer with random people is still not worth it, and some old bugs that should get fixed are still there.
I hope they will update it later and maybe make some DLC that will make the game up to modern standards, the fresh graphics are really not enough for me to keep playing it. I will just play maybe a week or 2 and it will be over without any changes or new content. In that regard the game is not even worth the current price, but I will let it slide for a bit of nostalgia trip.
And I stated that you have no way to measure that, so I can cast a fire bolt, and teleport to the town and wait others to kill the boss while I organize my inventory to pick the loot or be elsewhere farming because the loot will be there waiting for me.
I don’t bother, but if you join a cooperative game, it’s for some reason and is not to be 2 or 3 guys being cooperative in 8 players difficulty and the rest farming elsewhere, then when the boss is found, go and cast a spell and pick the loot.
Many people have explained that multiplayer was usually understood as a way to get XP and questing and if you do it with friends you may get the items they pick if they want to give them to you and they don’t need them. For looting people usually played private and did hundreds of runs to get those unique items.
I undestand that, what you want is an “all in one”, what only need the ploot, but that is exactly what shortens game life. The way the game has worked for 20 years is the way that have kept a bigger community than even D3 the past years, D3 experience tell us that an easy game bores people, in a few years when everything is done quickly and you only have to play to get a pet or a skin.
Nah, you just want the same old game with new graphics, original D2 servers are filled insane amounts of bots, items are sold for real money online (China item farms approves). The real amount of D2 players is tiny, I would not call that active or alive game. Like I said there is no such thing as endless game, for the developers it doesn’t matter, you already paid for the game and they have your money, if the game would die in 2 months its not a big deal as they already got the money. People sooner or later will get bored, the gameplay is really nothing special here, you point the mouse at stuff, stuff dies and drops some garbage. If someone is playing this everyday for 20 years or so they should get mental check. Dews got the money from preorders, they will get some after launch, like few months in the game will stop to sell as all people that wanted to buy it already did. After that the only way to sell more of it is to make new content for it. World is moving forward and there are already better and actually cheaper games in this genre, its not the old good days without competition and obviously people will move on after getting their nostalgia trip, beside the few rock headed people that don’t like any changes and will keep setting up bots to play with.
Thats the case when you stay close to the dying monster to have better chances to get the drop. Your idea dont need it, and will reward people that take lower risk which is not okay and would also influence HC.
I am 100% sure there will be a bunch of people who will like the idea of ploot at first and then get unlucky and frustrated. What happens then? Do we need a 3rd option to satisfy everyone?
Then he could only change to normal style and has to improve his reactions and precision. Or he logs into this forum and posts 20 arguments why it would be better to have instanced loot and getting a bunch of angry people on his side, like it is since the past weeks.
It would not be fair, someone beeing top geared by mere luck rolling his stuff with ploot while someone who prefers the original has to fight for it. Ofc he wants to fight for it still its not fair that you able to reach this point with less effort. While people still be able to trade and play with each other since its just an option for gamecreating.
The toxicity is just because of people that cant handle competition and feeling like they messed up in their life because couldnt loot the shako fast enough. No one gets forced to play with other people. There will still be toxicity because people didnt get their item by luck. Ploot will never solve this. You cant make them grow up by giving a random lootsystem.
A spamclick wont disturb any other player and its not like you have to lift a 500 pound heavy rock.
A real reason for me would be the fact that its possible to block paths while a sorc or someone with nigma could easy port past that. I could understand it in this specific case, its annoying and people could even abuse it. But then something needs a change there and not on the loot. (Like idk out of the air not thinking further i would say make it possible for people to walk through each other when in party and neutral.) Anyway i drifted away here.
The players are always giving their own way to play the game, there many options to solve problems and beat the game. Nothing is for free unless in free4you. Everyone is giving the same conditions in the game.
And again this is a serious advice, if you cant handle or not like a game, there is a huge range of videogames that got exactly whats asked for, why change these things on a old game even if its just 50/50 on the opinions.
Mods are not the standart, it has nothing to do with this now.
I dont get this point.
D2’s lootsystem was ment to be competetive, and the thing here is that it gets only competetive when you play with other people, thats why i and many other play multiplayer. The more player the more stuff drops and thats how its supposed to be, everyone gets his piece of the cake. Thats literally the fun part of a multiplayer. We need enough luck to drop something already it should not be 100% up to rng who gets the loot.
If we dont want this competition we are always givin the choice to mf alone, this would be different if we forced to play with other people. But we are not.
Keep it fair and not random. Fair means everyone has the same conditions and chances while still take influence with his skills.
I know its stupid to say new player or old player. I dont care if someone is new or not. But we still just getting a remaster and I think im not saying something wrong when i say that the older generation played its part of this success.
I can understand when people get angry when they see someone who barely know the game trying to change something they dont even understand.
I not mean you just speaking in general.
I do know that not only new player want changes and im not totally against any changes, i really like to see some of QoL changes.
We just get scared when there so many voices for drastic changes. You seen it yourself, people directly (and tbf me included) was and are against ANY other lootchange without even knowing what exactly was suggested. I wont judge anyone for that.
We already got people split up more in ladder and nl now, if we have option for 2 different loot systems we split it into 4…
I preordered cause I wanted to play legit D2 and and they even still doing commercial that says “The game you know and love”. And I am aware for sure that slight adjustments are made and i’m really happy to see shared loot tabs for exmaple.
But it seems to get more and more and more the closer we get to the release. It’s not okay at all. People are scared for too drastic changes.
We will see next months how this game will turn out, in general we argue about something that isnt even present. I love this game and nowadays im not easy to excite with a videogame but d2 got me and i believe many other too.
Not everyone, but a bunch and also alot of lazy people i’d bet my cheeks off.
That maybe sounds mean but I don’t see why anyone should have to suffer for changing important things of the game because of others limitations.
Then appriciate something else, 20 years is alot of time, people spend mostly so much time with things they are very passionate about. I didnt seem to bad to me if someone plays this game for 20 years.
There so many games that might fit your current preferences and playstyle, its not okay trying to change something that works well for the majority of people, after all its a remaster, things would be totally different to me if its a remake.
Outrageous said, of these 40% the half will go to another game after a month anyway ploot or not
Not every game is ment to be easy, but even for thoose people there some titles. D2 is not one of them. If people dont like clicking they should not own a computer and we can even play with controller meanwhile.
Thats my point the game is not supposed to be easy, and it should not be. Same what i mentioned before… It’s not fair.
Not maybe, it for sure did mate.
Bots not really join your game, if so people join bot games.
I played a lot bnet also with current version, i cant remember seeing a bot join someones public game and stealing loot.
If you join a bot game yourself you just support their cheating and cant complain about the bot grabbing loot so fast.
It for sure has impact of the economy i dont want argue there, but if there bots they run their own games and it doesnt matter which one of the eight bots got their loot.
Lets say even there is a bot joining your public mf game, why keep on playing and make the bot profit from high playercount? Tho seriously you wont see bots joining pub games, if at all they make their own public games and its up to us to not join them.
Its up to the developer and also to the community that this wont reach dimensions like it did and this doesnt mean changing gamemechanics.
People complain about botting but join their game to level up. Nice!
So to come at a conclusion for me, the game should stay competetive and fair, ploot is not fair if its is an option to the oldfashioned way it ment to be, for everyone the same it has to be^^
If the 7 players in my game are ok with it, then it is ok.
Would you also say that shuttling a low level char to hell is not ok?
Would you say rushing hellforge quest in classic is not ok?
Would you say powerleveling chars in uber tristram is not ok?
In all these cases at least one player was useless and got benefit for it. The other players who did the lifting were fine with that player getting the benefit.
Ploot is the same, just with less of a difference between the “lifter” and the “leecher”, because leeching doesnt make any sense with these odds to begin with.
Bottom line is. All players agree on it. That are private game conditions. Do not tell us how to play our private games, even if you can find them via a lobby-filter.
Yes, if you have enough people, the chances that one person will not like one specific option is very high. (the same applies to FFA btw)
They can try and ask. But since there is a higher number of players with their respective loot allocations already, they might not have such a high voting power anymore.
And maybe their third option is even better, who knows. We would need to judge it on its merits.
You are implying that we are angry. But we are not.
There is an angry crowd however. They are not asking for options though.
Why is it not fair? The one who gets his loot by loot waives the majority of the loot for his allies. You do not waive anything in FFA loot. You want to have the “chance” to pick it all.
That is what you are chosing the option for. The higher reward with higher risk.
If i play the lottery i can also win more than putting the same money on the bank. Still the bank is (financial crisis aside) more reliable with lower reward. Once you hit the lottery though, you will not regret your decision.
Also the chances of being top geared by mere luck are veeeery slim. For one because people on your side of the argument said that pub games account to only 1% of their item finds, for another because they are creepingly slow at getting loot (as many of your side of the argument have listed as a downside) because you only get 1/8 of it.
They will still be able to trade though. Because their value will be the average of other players with ploot and the same playtime/killspeed.
Getting the same as other players with the same playtime/killspeed does not sound unfair to me.
Trust me, many of us can handle competition. Telling you something about toxicity does not necessarily mean that it is the others who use the FFA system in a toxic way.
I can reduce the impact of toxicity though. We did not suggest world peace, we suggested a system that facilitates cooperation instead of countering it.
On some days you might feel pumped and wanna compete, on others you feel chill and wanna play a relaxed game with other pubbies. What is there not to understand about that?
I am pretty sure that is how most players feel regulary.
Why was it meant to be competitive when there was no alternative at the time and the chances are significantly higher to get loot for yourself when you are playing alone and not with/against others?
If anything the lootsystem was meant to be for solo gaming.
And that is very relatable. Still it is not why many others are playing multiplayer.
You can play soccer without having to be in the champions league.
You can play poker without having to bet your entire life earnings.
Just because some people prefer to play games a certain way, does not mean that their “competitiveness” is the benchmark for anybody else.
I suggested it before: have ladder be FFA only, non-ladder be ploot + FFA. That way you have a clear distinction between the “competitive” game and the “casual” game.
And you have a choice for that. Others are fine with relying 100% on rng. Because rng to them is what the loot system actually is “a giant slot machine”.
If you click buttons faster on a slot machine, you do not get a different result. Or do you? I never tried. Anyways, it might not be good for your kneecaps.
But now we are forced to play alone. You see the problem?
It was said before. But apparently it gets forgotten quickly. Lag. Health. Age.
How do you influence these factors with your skill?
That is relatable. Still a grown up person should have the decency to explain why the other person does not understand it. And also bring the wisdom to account for the chance that exactly the opposite might be the case.
If they have a point, they should explain it. Swinging insults does not win arguments.
But i am happy you have taken of your jesters cap since yesterday. Very enjoyable argument. (btw, you might wanna try out the “we were here” franchise)
Do not forget that an option might also retain more players over time. And additionally you might want to consider my “ladder - ffa loot only” compromise. (and yes, i will play ladder anyway)
Meeting change requests with scrutiny is perfectly fine. Afterall, the game is complex and it might have unexpected side effects. But this is exactly why i encourage anti-plooters like you to speak up with arguments. Because maybe you see something that is completely broken, which invalidates the suggestion. But so far, i think we still have not found the big anti-argument.
As an example: i wanted to have ploot with anti-leeching rules originally. Something like range, damage, activity being factored into ploot to even change the chances to get more loot if you play more active (e.g. carrying a team of 7). But there were too many ways to abuse it.
I came up with the abuses myself and eventually decided that these rules would not work the way, i intended (static field breaks “most damage dealt”, multishot breaks “needs to have damaged enemy”).
The plain 1/8 ploot does not have that clear vectors of abuse yet. Even the afk-leeching would not be so powerful (less loot) and easily prevented (unparty, pk, kick).
I would expect a change like this to be rolled out e.g. in a ladder season (yes, slight conflict to what i wrote above) and tested out for a season. Then afterwards it is either kept, modified or scrapped. (afterwards it could move to the non-ladder mode)
We all do. And yes, it has been a dry phase.
Maybe. But as long as they play with other lazy people, why not? You are afraid that lazy people will outfarm you? ^^
And who exactly is the one suffering?
When you like something for 20 years and you go tired of one factor of it, you usually do not stop it completely, but try to do what you love without too much of the stuff that you no longer like.
E.g. a baker who loves his job might still bake occasionally. But he surely wont get up at 4:00 a.m. anymore.
A soccer player who played champions league might still enjoy a little kick with his friends without having to risk his ligaments. Actually some might even choose not to play with certain people anymore, because these people cannot switch of their competitiveness and are bound to cause injuries.
Even if that was true, i think the rate of anti-plooters who didnt even make it through that month (before release) is even higher.
Also 20% is still quite a high number.
Ploot does not make D2 easy (as long as you do not already consider it to be easy). Drop chances are the same, enemies are the same, heroes are the same.
You still need to play the game. All we want to avoid are some clicks because we want to play cooperative.
Just because legolas shot a few orcs that were flanking gimli, doesnt mean that he made his fight of moria easy. He simply helped him a bit. And a few orcs later, gimli helped him just the same.
This is called working together.
I like clicking.
But then again i have a job that requires me to click 8-10 hours a day. If i have to click outside of these hours, i want it to be worth it. The clicking game is not worth it anymore. The fighting game is.
I wholeheartedly agree.
You can still complain, but you need to be aware of your role in the bot-verse.
Yup. If only others would see it like you and me. Unfortunately our number was not so high in the last years.
I didnt say that they would join. I just wanted to say that bots will most likely not play ploot games, because they simply get less reward for it. And even if they did, all they would get would be 1/8. Same as everybody else. Bot or not. So their damage is reduced.
Agreed. But most players unfortunately prefer the taxi-mode.
Still our ploot-run back in the days was always full. But as said earlier, it is quite some work to do the ploot stuff with pen and paper in a run with leaving/joining players. It actually takes more attention than the run itself.
That is why i prefer a clean system for it. For me to save time and concentrate on the game, for everyone in it to make it fair and impartial and most importantly for those who will never be able to make their own run, because they are just playing through the story and want to enjoy the game.
I said it someplace earlier. Over a long time, you most likely will have around 1/8 of all loot in an FFA game anyway. Unless you are very fast or very slow, the later of which most likely have factors outside of their control playing into it. So going from 1/8 (or slightly higher) to 1/8 seems fair enough for me.
Anyways, understood. I see where you are coming from.
What do you think about adding ploot to non-ladder only?
Players who can’t acquire the runes/items they want, because the introduction of PLoot has led to fewer items and runes being found.
The basis for this conclusion is as follows:
We’ll assume the implementation of a PLoot system with “timed” loot, that becomes FFA after 2 or 3 seconds. Players may not recognize the true value of certain items, like 4 OS Eth Thresher, so there will be valuable loot available to those who lag behind to find out what additional items may be available.
Since the PLoot system has created incentives for players to lag behind, this means they are not rushing ahead to help clear monsters. This reduces the clear speed of runs, and therefore the total number of runes and items found/generated by the economy. The PLoot system also does not create any disincentives for players to lag behind like in the FFA system (players who lag behind in the FFA system miss out on almost all new loot). That will not happen in PLoot unless they are so far behind the action they are out of range of attribution.
One last thing… players who despise PLoot and prefer FFA may nonetheless feel compelled to participate in PLoot games, assuming the potential extra loot left behind by PLooters exceeds the clicking prowess of the individual in question.
I would argue that FFA causes people to not focus on killing instead they are trying to be the fastest looters. Easy fix, have to be within 10-20 m of drop to be included in loot roll.
they are not punished for having a more complicated build (lots of movement and spells or being ranged and actually shooting at range)
The only really compelling reason I’ve seen against Ploot so far is that it might incentivize certain types of botting. Fixing who is eligible for said drops ought to fix that problem in some situations. Vote kick ought to fix it in others…
honestly also not a bad solution. Then you dont have to make millisecond decisions while fighting or risk losing out entirely.
The people for FFA seem to be those who think they can game that system to their advantage at the disadvantage of everyone else. If ripping people off around you is the only way you can enjoy this game then might I suggest you evaluate your motivations?
in a perfect world I would say no, but pickit usage was very rampant in d2 and I have a hard time believing it won’t be the same case with d2r. the ffa experience of being the first one to grab a good drop is cool but sucks a big one when some guy insta teleports and picks up an item before you can even have a chance to click it!
This really doesn’t fix the problem, because all the players have to do is catch up to the rest of the group after they finished waiting for the timed loot to become FFA. They won’t actually contribute to killing the monsters, but it is not hard to get within that range of attribution before they die. What will happen as a result of all this lagging behind is that MP runs of Baal/Hell Cows/etc. will be cleared more slowly, resulting in fewer items and runes for everyone in the economy.
Also, the problem you talk about is no problem at all for regular packs of mobs like cows, which die rapidly to aoe spells, and as far as bosses go, I’ve never seen any boss not die because no one wants to hit it…
This is just plain wrong. I can only speak for myself, but my concern is that the “timed” loot mechanic will lead to slower clearing of MP Baal/Hell Cow/etc. runs, resulting in fewer items and runes for everyone in the economy. Making the loot mechanic not timed would be even worse, as then valuable loot would likely go to waste.
It’s kind of the first opportunity, yeah. D2 hasn’t been actively developed in over a decade.
So… you should be playing D3?
Again, since personal loot would tend to equalize drop rates, how is that entitlement?
Other way around, really. You’re the one who keeps calling people kids.
Even if you gave D2 personal loot, it still wouldn’t play anything like D3. For you to not realize this is rather telling.
I mean… you’ve been doing the same thing.
How so, if the drops don’t increase?
Do you have any concrete evidence that the bulk of Runes comes from 8 player Hell Cows where the other players intentionally let the 2 AoE classes take advantage of them? I mean, you didn’t even use “runes” both times in your argument there - you used “loot” the first time. So if even you can’t keep that straight, how am I supposed to trust in your analysis?
You’re assuming that under the current system that a lot of people know the value of every time and, further, that those that do actually see every item drop. I doubt both of those assumptions. The scenario you’re describing here happens now.
This isn’t WOW, this isn’t DIABLO 3. This is DIABLO 2. You don’t like it? Don’t play it, and don’t try to change something that makes it what it is. I feel like at this point, these people are trolls.
Zero reason to not keep it the way it is. You want personal loot? Play private game, or play single player. Don’t come at us with this nonsense.
This is literally the same as in FFA loot. Players who can take valuable loot.
Nobody is draggin behind in FFA loot.
What incentive?
There are still 6 other people for each timeouted loot to grab them. It is almost exactly the same conditions as in FFA. Unless you play with 2 persons, there is no chance anyone will drag behind. Unless that person is willing to give up valuable loot at the front of the group.
Yes, if people would lag behind, it would decrease the speed. But since that is an argument that would also apply to FFA (with just 1 player more being FFA-picking in FFA games), it is very unlikely.
Set your timeout to 1-1.5 seconds. There you go.
Again. Why would that loot not be left behind in FFA games just the same?
Assuming that a PLoot system means timed loot, people will lag behind to snag potentially valuable loot once it becomes FFA. This means they won’t be helping to clear mobs, hence slower clear speed of multiplayer runs and therefore fewer total drops.
If you read my post more carefully, you would realize I had set up a fictional simplified model of the D2 economy with only 2 farming spots, Hell Baal and Hell Cows. Yes, it goes without saying that D2 consists of far more locations than those 2. However, it remains true that bosses (with the exception of the Countess) are not the best sources of runes, certain packs of mobs like Hell Bovine are. Whether they are Hell Bovine or another kind of mob, they are generally susceptible to being rapidly killed by aoe attacks. As for your semantics about loot and runes, I consider runes to be loot just as much as items.
Actually I’m doing no such thing. I am simply assuming that the ones that do know the value of those items will make a mad dash to click on it, and so those items rapidly disappear from the floor and all players move on in short order. In any given game, there are certainly going to be those that do not know the value of certain items, but that will not change the fact that they will quickly be picked off the floor. Also, the players do not need to know an item’s exact value - they just need to know that the item is clearly worth picking up.
Well yeah - because anyone who lags behind in FFA loot misses all new loot. Pretty bad tradeoff. PLoot on the other hand gives those laggards a shot at the new loot as well (just as long as they aren’t lagging so far behind that they get out of attribution range).
Let’s consider two scenarios: one where the timeouted loot is visible in a greyed out manner until it is freely available to the nonwinners and one where it will suddenly appear to everyone else after the time out duration expires.
In scenario 1, if a valuable item appears that a lot of players other than the winner want to pick up, everyone will stop what they are doing until the time out duration expires and then madly try and click on it. Under FFA this item would have disappeared immediately, but here the clear speed of the run will slow down every time this happens.
In scenario 2, players who understand the new PLoot system will hang around waiting to see what will become “visible” after the less knowledgeable disappear. It will be like MF Barbs - only every player can potentially be doing it!
It doesn’t equally apply to FFA runs because a lot of valuable gear will disappear immediately (as long as a couple of players recognize its approximate value) - and there is a penalty to those that lag behind, in that they effectively forfeit their chance at new loot dropped by mobs killed by those racing ahead!
You’re going to have to explain this one a bit more. Depending on what you exactly mean by this, this could be ridiculously harsh. Also, from what I understand, eligibility for a shot at the loot in PLoot simply requires being in attribution range when the mob dies. This is easy to achieve even for a player who is slightly lagging behind the action to look for valuable items left behind by PLooters.
But as said earlier, it is quite some work to do the ploot stuff with pen and paper in a run with leaving/joining players. It actually takes more attention than the run itself.