It’s just a bad idea overall.
This isn’t WOW, this isn’t DIABLO 3. This is DIABLO 2. You don’t like it? Don’t play it, and don’t try to change something that makes it what it is. I feel like at this point, these people are trolls.
Zero reason to not keep it the way it is. You want personal loot? Play private game, or play single player. Don’t come at us with this nonsense.
This is literally the same as in FFA loot. Players who can take valuable loot.
Nobody is draggin behind in FFA loot.
What incentive?
There are still 6 other people for each timeouted loot to grab them. It is almost exactly the same conditions as in FFA. Unless you play with 2 persons, there is no chance anyone will drag behind. Unless that person is willing to give up valuable loot at the front of the group.
Yes, if people would lag behind, it would decrease the speed. But since that is an argument that would also apply to FFA (with just 1 player more being FFA-picking in FFA games), it is very unlikely.
Set your timeout to 1-1.5 seconds. There you go.
Again. Why would that loot not be left behind in FFA games just the same?
Assuming that a PLoot system means timed loot, people will lag behind to snag potentially valuable loot once it becomes FFA. This means they won’t be helping to clear mobs, hence slower clear speed of multiplayer runs and therefore fewer total drops.
If you read my post more carefully, you would realize I had set up a fictional simplified model of the D2 economy with only 2 farming spots, Hell Baal and Hell Cows. Yes, it goes without saying that D2 consists of far more locations than those 2. However, it remains true that bosses (with the exception of the Countess) are not the best sources of runes, certain packs of mobs like Hell Bovine are. Whether they are Hell Bovine or another kind of mob, they are generally susceptible to being rapidly killed by aoe attacks. As for your semantics about loot and runes, I consider runes to be loot just as much as items.
Actually I’m doing no such thing. I am simply assuming that the ones that do know the value of those items will make a mad dash to click on it, and so those items rapidly disappear from the floor and all players move on in short order. In any given game, there are certainly going to be those that do not know the value of certain items, but that will not change the fact that they will quickly be picked off the floor. Also, the players do not need to know an item’s exact value - they just need to know that the item is clearly worth picking up.
Well yeah - because anyone who lags behind in FFA loot misses all new loot. Pretty bad tradeoff. PLoot on the other hand gives those laggards a shot at the new loot as well (just as long as they aren’t lagging so far behind that they get out of attribution range).
Let’s consider two scenarios: one where the timeouted loot is visible in a greyed out manner until it is freely available to the nonwinners and one where it will suddenly appear to everyone else after the time out duration expires.
In scenario 1, if a valuable item appears that a lot of players other than the winner want to pick up, everyone will stop what they are doing until the time out duration expires and then madly try and click on it. Under FFA this item would have disappeared immediately, but here the clear speed of the run will slow down every time this happens.
In scenario 2, players who understand the new PLoot system will hang around waiting to see what will become “visible” after the less knowledgeable disappear. It will be like MF Barbs - only every player can potentially be doing it!
It doesn’t equally apply to FFA runs because a lot of valuable gear will disappear immediately (as long as a couple of players recognize its approximate value) - and there is a penalty to those that lag behind, in that they effectively forfeit their chance at new loot dropped by mobs killed by those racing ahead!
You’re going to have to explain this one a bit more. Depending on what you exactly mean by this, this could be ridiculously harsh. Also, from what I understand, eligibility for a shot at the loot in PLoot simply requires being in attribution range when the mob dies. This is easy to achieve even for a player who is slightly lagging behind the action to look for valuable items left behind by PLooters.
play a private game, problem solved
So what now? Dragging behind or not so much dragging behind?
I dont think you have a big problem here. Just see it in action, then we will know for sure.
I do not think scenario 2 is a good idea. Popping up items feel too artificial.
Your point in scenario 1 is valid however. I think the timeout time should be somewhat balanced around the time that it takes the first player to pick up the loot. So depending on part half a second to maybe 5 seconds.
If you want a fast-flowing run, you will set it very low so that basically just the loot in your own vicinity is reachable for you within the ploot restriction.
When you are a casual group, you will most likely not reach top marks for clears anyway.
Also keep in mind that pub games account for roughly 1% of your found loot. Losing a bit of that 1% is not many items lost.
Same as in FFA. If you drag behind, you see nothing. I dont see the problem with that.
If the players decide to increase the timeout or deactivate it, so that they do not have this effect, they need to actively share items. It depends on the players preferences on how to use the function.
With pleasure.
My preference (not necessarily what the majority is asking for) would be to not only have the checkbox for ploot on game start but also select a timeout value for the loot (0 = ffa, infinite = ploot without timeout).
This would allow players to use the feature with great flexibility.
E.g. a baal run where you are fighting very static could use a higher timeout value (e.g. 2-5 seconds)
a cowrun where you are mostly split-up could use a lower timeout value (e.g. 0.5 - 1 seconds)
a casual story playthrough could even go higher and say 10 seconds, because the players want to digest the game at their own speed
even within such a run type you could differentiate. Want a semi-competitive pub ploot game where one player has ~half a second of a shot to get each loot until it become FFA?
or maybe a relaxed run where everyone has their own private loot (infinite timeout) and has to actively be asked to share items he forgot to pick up or exchange items he has picked up that he doesnt need with others.
Over time there would be some best-practice times for each run type that combine the best of both worlds. FFA and ploot.
Are you absolutely certain that no optional system would be added? The head of the diablo franchise tweeted that “No new features till after launch”.
What new features do you think are coming after D2R launch? If these were non-controversial, they might have just announced these “new features”. An alternate possibility is that they did not want to promise anything now and fail to deliver.
What do you think is under the “Game Creation” tab in the option menus in Blizzard’s screenshot from the accessibility blog post?
The point is they are lagging behind just enough to contribute little or no effort to actually killing the mobs, arriving just as all the mobs keel over.
It’s not the same (for PLoot) as in FFA because arriving in the right room (for example) just as all the mobs die in FFA will result in your character getting little to no loot. In PLoot however, you will get the random roll chance just as if you had been actively helping everyone kill the mobs.
For example, during the D2R Beta in Multiplayer Tomb runs, I would often arrive in the right room just as all the mobs were dying from the Sorcs who had TPed ahead and then killed all the mobs. I had no expectation of getting anything of value - but in PLoot, I’d have a 1/8 chance at every potentially valuable item.
This last part is interesting, because I agree that the equilibrium from a PLoot perspective is very different depending on the kind of run. Hell Cow runs in particular seem to be a bad fit for PLoot, both due to the spreading out of players and the focus on the power of sorcs and javazons to kill large number of mobs. As I’ve theorized before, Sorcs and Javazons will clearly prefer FFA Hell Cow Games in general, particularly if the timeout period is long. Hell Baal games are on the other end of the spectrum.
But while the choice of time out period is interesting, I don’t think it will solve the central problem I’ve identified in scenario 1. Even worse, there’s a good chance many game creators will use the “wrong” value for time out in their game, resulting in a particularly bad case of “stop and start” action as players wait around valuable items for someone to either pick it up or it becomes FFA.
I hope there’s an option for personal loot. 
Everyone complaining who has been playing for 20 years isn’t going to quit. When you do anything for that long, it becomes a hard habit to break. It’s like having a drug addiction, just gimme one more hit of that good good.
Yes. And everybody in the game is fine with that mechanic.
If someone is obviously dragging, then you can easily unparty that person and he will no longer get any loot (as opposed to FFA).
And either the sorx is fine with it or she isnt and will either unparty you or play an FFA game instead.
You are switching the scenarios btw. In one case people are dragging, now they are basically right behind a teleport sorx. Yes, there is a worst case for every situation. FFA or ploot. But the question is, which playertype would play that mode and would that playertype be fine with these mechanics.
You mean short, right?
As i said. This might be a good argument against ploot (the first real systemic one).
I think it will come down on how players will play the mode.
FFA also has problems if players actively try to steal loot instead of playing the game (which happens quite often). So there is an inherent problem in that mode as well.
I wouldnt think that the economic pressure of the “dragging” is too high. But i think it might damage the attractivity of such a mode.
In the ploot games, i played so far, there might have been a bit dragging (e.g. a unique on the other side of the map). But it was alright in those games.
Also in the games with ploot you will usually have a slightly longer looting period after a boss kill. Which is really something to be missed in D2, because practically any good items disappear immediately. In ploot there would at least be some period to take a look at the spoils of conflict.
Just to add, I’ve played a ton of PoE. Personal loot with people tend to clear even faster because they’re not worried about looting at all. They can come back and get the loot later and just smash the whole map first before going back to see what dropped.
Also, there are rules in any game, for example if an Exalt drops in a carry, you give it to the person who is carrying. I’m sure those similar rules would evolve in D2R.
Toxic….there’s that word again….
You’re all the same and you’re not getting what you want. Move on.
This is problematic for a reason you probably didn’t think of: griefing. If the party does not like an individual, even if that individual isn’t doing anything troublesome, they could unparty them and deny that individual nearly all of the loot if that player is not an aoe class like a javazon or a sorc. This would effectively force them to leave the game or go solo.
This seems problematic again, because now the Sorcs and Javazons can unparty from the group, manually form their own group, and shut out every one else from almost all the loot.
Also, I wasn’t exactly switching scenarios: I often arrived as I described above because I sometimes looked at the loot left behind for about 1-3 seconds.
Without the party/unparty mechanic, I suspect most sorcs and Javazons would not like PLoot games that involve clearing a bunch of mobs and would choose FFA games.
Yep, typo that I didn’t catch.
In my opinion, this is the only good argument for PLoot. During non-boss fights, the economic dragging and stop and start action would be catastrophic for the game.
And you think the same is not already possible with declaring hostility?
What is griefing about 7 players deciding they do not want to play with 1 player?
Why is it not griefing if that 1 player runs around and takes their ffa loot?
And why would you expect the loot he already got to be lost? He still can pick it up. It is the future loot that he might not get, but that is ok, because he is not playing with the party anymore.
Nothing “griefy” about it.
Again: why is that problematic? It is probably the wet dream of every classic d2 player.
And why would it not be problematic to take items that a sorx or amazon have looted without your help outside of your party?
You are listing advantages instead of problematic issues. Even some FFA loot advocates might consider them as good side effects.
Well, that is their choice then.
The original argument was that ranged characters (especially amazons) are at a disadvantage in FFA loot because their positioning is naturally not near where the loot drops and they have to actively move out of position to aquire loot.
If they are saying it is the lesser of the two evil, then that is their choice.
I just want to say that this is the first productive conversation I’ve seen on these forums without any name calling or hostile messages in regards to Ploot. @Fenix and @Blash.
I’m genuinely enjoying hearing both sides of the argument, regardless of what I’m for or not for.
^ THIS (is not totally true, but this is really cool when that tend to happen sometimes)
I think most people who don’t start off with attacks on other players have had quite a bit of a calm discussions on the subject, and luckily otherwise this topic … That’s not why we all end up having the same opinion, but having calm discussions and trying to really understand what people want to talk about is still better than telling them to get out.
A couple of things to unpack here. First, you have some valid points regarding the 7 players right to choose who they want to play with and the case about the FFA player not in the party who is doing nothing but running around and stealing loot. I also happen to think that the viable solution should not require people to go hostile to fix it.
But this isn’t going to wind up being a point supporting your position regarding how you want PLoot to work. The reason why is to consider the converse. Suppose you have a group of 7 players with relatively low aoe doing a run at a somewhat more leisurely pace. A well geared MF sorc player (or a Javazon with Enigma) joins the game, leaves the party, and then proceeds to lay waste to most of the mobs, getting most of the killing blows. He can use the party as magnets for his kiting, teleporting and aoe dmg act, potentially handling powerful groups of enemies that might actually be a threat to that player solo in an 8 player game. The net result is that the AOE player has used the presence of the party not only to increase the loot he or she has access to, but to help distract the powerful enemies long enough so that they can be handled, while denying that same group nearly all of the loot despite the benefits the party’s presence provides. In this scenario, everything has become a minigame of who got the last hit? I’m interested if you think that’s fair, since the only solution here would be for the party to go hostile on the Sorc/Javazon in question.
It might be the wet dream of some classic D2 sorc or javazon players, but it certainly isn’t in the interest of the game. Your scenario could potentially see almost all non-sorc or javazon players effectively locked out of all multiplayer Hell Cow games, as players don’t get xp from mobs killed by someone not in their party either. This is far worse than FFA, where they simply time their kills in such a way that they get more of the loot, which is well deserved.
Maybe advantages to a certain group of individuals, at the expense of other players in the game
This isn’t true for Javazons or Sorcs who effectively dictate when non-bosses die.
basically D2 purists think if you want anything to be fair that you are bad and you should feel bad.
any discussion of any topic that might suggest D2 wasn’t perfect for the last 20 years (because obviously if it didnt get fixed in that time then it was perfectly planned) should be directly confronted with “go play D3” or “go play solo”.
Guess what folks not everything is working as intended. Blizzard just quit developing D2 even in light of gaming evolutions.
I for one hope that VV gets around to fixing broken mechanics even if it offends the purists. change in the face of evolution of gaming concepts is not bad. nor does every QoL improvement = D3.
everyone is just soo black and white with this stuff. there is middle ground between glitchy old D2 with all its flaws and D3. Lessons have been learned about how to and how not to do certain things. take those lessons to heart VV. Or all you will be left with is the same 300 people that still play D2 on Bnet from time to time.
No thanks.
Even D2:R Developers said they wanted to keep the game to the original source.
Lol, I have 4000 hours on POE, almost every pug game I’ve been in the person hosting or carrying gets mad the whole entire game stops. Then the “who picked up the exalt” chat starts. We are not doing any more maps till whoever picked up the exalt drops it. Or beachhead maps…" who just looted the mirror shard, I said no looting its xp only." Then everyone stands around being quiet while 1-2 people keep repeating themselves cause someone jacked it while investing nothing themselves. Also side note most people play solo on POE.