Paragon Cap is Appalling

I believe you’ve been misinterpreting their words, somewhat or they are omitting some context.

Also, cap doesn’t offer an equal overall ground of sorts, but over time legitimate players eventually catch them. At first few weeks, botters could have acquire crazy items compared to legit players but in time that gap between average legit players and bots will close down.
After a while the gap will only stand as small as few augment ranks in months. Hopefully, since Paragon level is not some crazy amount to overpower the challenge, the player decisions will play a major role in high tier gameplay and this is where skill matters.

The new 800 paragon cap offers comparable power boost to uncapped 4.5- 5k plvl I think; but since the traits of survival and damage output are separated, hopefully the human decision and skill (which attribute to prioritize, and how to position etc.) will play a major role. This is not equal “level” in any perspective but not supposed to be, because you’re not in equal level as any other player in terms of luck as it stands either.

Why are we comparing lazy competitive minimal to a botter? Anyway, 180 hours is still plenty to find items and get augments. If you play for half hour longer per day, that’s 270 hours for legitimate player.
A very dedicated player who push leaderboards, would play around 4-6 hours per day; given this Season has no experience boost or a rewarding grind. Still they have to fish and farm those keys racking up if they aim at the top.


He doesn’t. It has been a serious argument from many that a paragon cap means an even field.


You tend to be more precise in your language: “more level” does not mean level. The majority of the people you quoted said “more level” (3/5) as shown above and below.

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#1: More of a playing field is the same as saying the gap is lowered.

#2: Seems to be saying that it is fine goal to make SSF a level playing field. Not saying that the paragon cap manages to do so. Also seems to be against the cap, so seems likely they didnt meant it created a level playing field.

#3: Same as #1

#4: Considering the post seems to be against the paragon cap, it seems quite likely that you are misreading if it you think it is saying that there will be a level playing field.

#5: Once again, more level playing field. As in closer to it.

All in all, yeah, people are saying, correctly, that a low paragon cap will reduce power differences. Not the same as saying there wont be any power differences.

Personally, I think a more level playing field is irrelevant. That isn’t what makes the paragon cap such an amazing change. Heck, just remove the leaderboards entirely.
But it should be obvious that the paragon cap does create a more level playing field for those who care.


Noo don’t remove the leaderboard. I use it as a “build guide” :joy: :joy: :joy:

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The reason you asked if I could provide a single example is because, presumably, you thought that I would be unable to do so, because you thought no-one would have claimed this. So I provided you with quotes of posters saying exactly what I said they had.

How am I misinterpreting their words by saying that some players were claiming that the paragon cap would make it a level playing field when I showed posters who had said, quite literally, exactly that?

I know. I’m not one of the people claiming the paragon cap will offer a level playing field.

And 2/5 said “level”…

…i.e. there are players claiming it will provide a level playing field (not just a more level playing field) like I said.

I’m muting the thread. You all have your concerns and I guess that’s not my problem. I can not convince you if you get so jaded over this. A vague saying is not a proper argument over the defense or against any kind of change; no need to concern horn.

I didn’t ask that, someone else did. I believe you need some rest and scroll up to check again. If you quote the right guy, I’d be thankful. I said you might have misinterpreted the context, and I see that I’m not alone in this.

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I dont look at a para cap as punishing the legit players at all.
We all have 800 points to play with, this will be the fairest season to date.
For the first time, skilled players will be able to compete, even against a bot.

Agreed, not sure why they allowed 10k botters for as long as they did.

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I read this thread as the Paragon Cap is Appealing. It is!

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No they won’t, not unless they put the time in to perfect gear/gems and augments, which will still take a significant amount of time.

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It will be the fairest… but STILL it will not be fair. Bots will always have advantage with better gear. And with paragon cap, that better gear will be even more impactful than before. Primal gear with perfect mainstat will give a lot more… previously you could kinda challenge that with paragons… at least in early to mid season. Bots can farm items and mats a lot faster than any player… so you still won’t be able to compete with them. There is nothing fair about that.

That is not true at all. Bots will still have advantage with better gear. Maybe people like some of the streamers could do that… but in general, no… nobody will. Bot will simply “outfarm” everyone with mats and keys.

Is it?

How many keys that legitimate players need to spend to fish a perfect rift? It could be from 1 key to 5,000 keys to get one perfect rift.

How long does it take to farm those keys if the legitimate players only play the game like 30 minutes to 1 hour per day? :thinking:

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How many of them care about paragon farming? 30-60 mins/day sounds like casual so we’re most likely talking about 1000 paragon per season, maybe 1200 at best.

How long it would take for you to get to 5000 paragon if you can only play 30-60 mins/day?

Let’s remove bots for a second.

Let’s say you get all Ancients. All Ancients isn’t really that difficult in a reasonable amount of hours. I have roughly 15 hours on my Wizard, and all but 1 ancient, and I have found some, just not any with good stats.

But let’s say minimum rolls. Excluding weapons, you’re roughly 1374 main stat behind. And they get all 150 augments, and you’re stuck to 125s via whispers. That’s another 650. So, this puts you roughly 2000 main stat behind them. That’s 400 paragon levels, which is not really that much. Especially considering one of the things the anti-paragon cap people have been stating is that paragon means very little. When you’re talking 30k main stat vs 2k main stat, if 30k is not that much, then 2k should be possible to surpass them on the leaderboard via skill.

So, I’d agree with you in that the keys are the big issue here. But just because someone has the perfect rift, does not mean they play the perfect rift perfectly. It also doesn’t mean that someone won’t find that perfect rift far earlier just through sheer dumb luck.

The bottom line is, we’ll find out at the end of next season who’s right. If I was a betting man, I’d say both parties will be right to a degree, but wrong to a degree as well.


About 300-500 keys for a decent push.

Currently I have roughly 10,502 keys collected over the last 3-4 seasons. I have 5376 in non-season and 5160 in seasons as noted in spreadsheet I keep for D3. I don’t paragon push. I just collect keys for non-season push during the 5 days between season roll-over and I get my new gear.

Currently I’ve been collecting about 50-100 keys a day. That’s roughly an hour.

I’ve been pushing non-season. In non-season 2022-2 (last era), my Mundu clear was 135. I pushed Mundu in 2023-1 (current) a few weeks ago to get to 139. 136 was about 10 keys. 137 maybe 50 (Orek). 138 was around 100 keys (Oreks). 139 was around 400 keys.

The 139 wasn’t a perfect rift either and it wasn’t an Orek’s Dream. If I wanted the perfect Oreks Dream, right map and monster type – maybe 1000 keys for another GR level but I’d rather use those 1000 keys for another set.

So let’s talk about actual times spent fishing. Out of 400 keys, I think I played 10-12 rifts. 3 rifts, I actually played all the way to the RG. The others were a quit after about 3-8 minutes when I realized that the affixes weren’t going my way – too much frozen - and I was losing too much time. The pushes happened over a 3 day period roughly 2-3 hours each day.

So I would say between collecting keys and pushing I spent roughly 12-15 hours total between collecting keys and pushing.

So this current season – the easiest and most overpowered season – I’m at P2500 – there’s no way I can get to P2000 on a non-altar season with the time I have.


5K para requires 1.94 Qd XP. Depending what do you do. if solo between 110-120 (2 min average), xp ranges from 2-4T per hr with pools. 60 mins daily requires 485-969 hrs. If you are top 1% elite player does speed 4 man 150s, xp range 22-35T per hour depending who you play with (current season, less on pre s29), 60 mins daily = 55 - 88hrs


Qd? Quattuordecillion? 10⁸⁴?

my bad, its Quadrillion

You can use paragon calculators if you know what kind of XP you are getting from what activities.

Even though i do agree to a certain amount because without paragon bots have diminished power, you as a legit player still need to put in alot of time in to be at a competetive level. Its not like reach 800 and you’re done, no you really have to grind alot for gear, augments, etc to make a shot.

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Honest question, why is the XP range so big?
2-4T means a variance of 100% while the 5% per GR level mean ~60% for those 10 levels.

At the same time the variance for groups is smaller. How come?

And thx for this example of how ridiculously broken group rewards are compared to solo.
Solo players really need some buffs like follower sets with XP buffs or something.