First Impressions on the Hydra Set?

Wizard
27

Wait don’t hydras snapshot things like Oculus anyway? So you wouldn’t even need to stay in it? Or did they nerf that long time ago?

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The bugs introduced during PTR version 1 caused some testers to do LON/LOD versions instead so much so it defeated the Hydra set. This caused DEVs to nerf the Hydra support items for PTR version 2.

Not enough, LON/LOD still kept pushing and at times performing just as much if not better than the Hydra set. This prompted DEVs to further nerf the Hydra items.

We can thank the LON/LOD players for the nerfs.

2 Likes
29

Hydra set is lacking dps. When paragon 5k struggle to complete 125, it means something.

Blizzard need to open their eyes and look at the data and adjust SS/Magistrates multiplier back up.

4 Likes
30

Might be so but… the issue is more like LoN/LoD performing better (no bugs, stronger and simpler to play) with a certain skill (Hydra) than the set dedicated to it. Doesn’t that mean the set itself needs to be looked at because it pales in comparison? The first nerf to the complementary items was okay (they were a bit too strong if we are honest), while the first buff to the set was not good enough. The second nerf bat was not needed. Instead they should have boosted the set to bring it on par or above LoD/LoN.

This is where I fail to understand the devs.

2 Likes
31

The new set lacks toughness and dmg. Not a contender for Vyrs. LoD version lacks dmg so it’s 3-4 GRs better than the set but that’s all.
I tested with arcane hydra, I love how hydras look.

1 Like
32

v2.6.8.66666 (love the build number) :japanese_ogre:

Tested LoD Mammoth Hydra. Tried a few non-seasonal iterations, ended up with an Ice Climber + Stone Gauntlet + Teleport build that was easier to manage defensively.

Good Things
  • Hydra attacking slow after summon appears to be fixed for all runes. Haven’t tested with Typhon’s yet, but definitely will be much more fluid for low GR and Nephalem speeds.
  • Haven’t tested the Set head death order yet, but if it indeed has been fixed for FIFO then that’s also good.
  • Per other players, shields issue with TV 4pc bug is fixed.
  • It’s Hydra!
Clear Potential

Cleared GR122 with <10 keys, and this is with primal weapon, unaugmented at 21k INT (about 2000 paragon equivalent).

Test Build, note: ran Evocation in the video, but perfect gearing with CDR glove, shoulder would allow to run EE as a passive, at the cost of 20% AD and 10% toughness.

https://ptr.d3planner.com/721355698

I think with better RNG on the rift, and perhaps a slightly better gameplay or build, GR124 is readily possible at this power level, and GR125 with higher level of effort (~200 keys).

Compare this to seasonal, where you get Echoing Fury and OID, a 1.4x multiplier and an AS increase that places your hydras at 1.67x damage. Granted, EF would not be up all the time, so assuming with 3/4 uptime, you’re talking about a total of ~1.75 multiplier over Non-seasonal. This is about 3.5 GRs increase.

Rounding up, we might clear GR129 in season at 2k paragon, if lucky and a good player, using a good build. This is really low, if you compare with Vyr Chantodo, which can already topple GR130 at this same paragon non-seasonal, and in season will likely hit around GR133, with great effort.

Non-Seasonal LoD Mammoth Playstyle

Non seasonal LoD definitely lacks toughness in comparison to the seasonal (which can include OID). You’re forced to manage this lack of toughness by either using APDs or Stone Gauntlets+ABBs, meaning no Ranslors.

The non-seasonal LoD Mammoth build itself is not quite as interesting to play compared to an archives seasonal build. However, it maintains moderate level of interest. Defensively we are worried about:

  • Channeling uptime during CoE
  • Making sure Squirt’s is active
  • Positioning of Hydras
  • Storm armor / Karini uptime.
  • Getting hit for Stone Gauntlets / or freezing for APDs (happens all the time in density). IMO, Halo of Arlyse + APDs is much more engaging on this front, but that’s too low of toughness in comparison to these other options + Halo of Karini.

While this is a good base, I don’t think this is enough to make it overly engaging, especially offensively.

Edit: since having adjusted cooldown, the etched sigil procced Spellsteal does add some interest offensively, as it scales damage with density, more regularly procs, and allows pulls of enemies into the river of flame.

Edit: Teleport also makes the build slightly more engaging as you can use this tool offensively by Teleporting to an Oculus ring spawn, or defensively to avoid heavy elite affixes. It also helps move through the rift.

With the seasonal LoD Mammoth build, i really enjoyed items like:

  • Echoing Fury
  • Ranslor

Also enjoyed with Hydra in general:

  • Pain Enhancer
  • Taeguk

These drastically modified how the build was played, and even make the Hydras attack faster, which felt great. The 30 frame Hydra BP especially, feels really slow to me.

Channeling

The channeling changes requiring 1 full second before damage goes into effect make it such that it is really annoying when you get CC’d (fear, knockback, stun), and this build doesn’t have room for any significant CC other than Spellsteal (on an 11 second base cooldown).

This is probably why I gravitated towards the Ice climbers.

While this does make CC immune and reducing items such as Invigorating and krelm’s more of an option, in a push you’d likely just be fishing for a more perfect rift with very few cc capable elites.

I really don’t like the changes to channeling requiring 1s. We used to be able to still benefit from CoE some if we were crowd controlled during our cycle. Now, even one knockback means you’re losing out on that 3x multiplier for a significant chunk of damage.

The feedback on channeling is also not as swift. By this I mean: the instant gratification of Channeling and seeing the increased damage was more satisfying.

Maintaining a channel used to feel important, now it just feels disconnected.

We used to be able to weave spells without detriment. Now we have to plan ahead, to match CoE.

Overall Impressions

It just feels really lackluster, especially with my having PTR experience with the same build in season, with archives bonus.

It’s a really bad combination to have to deal with channeling on this build after a severe nerf to channeling, and then combine that with a decrease to Hydra multiplier items as compared to PTR.

This build is more on the level of LoD meteor shower at the moment in non-season. I doubt it will be used over Vyr Chantodo.

IMO, Frozen orb, Meteor shower, Twister, EB all need increases to make them more competitive (those balance changes can be saved for later though).

Hydra should at least compete with Vyr Chantodo on an equal level in Non-season.

Recommendations

Multiplier increase to balance Hydra in general:

  • Increase the multiplier to SS, Magistrate, going up to 6x, 6x multipllier (500%). EDIT: revised values after looking at NS Hydra vs NS chantodo, even at 5.5x, the build would still need +1 GR to compete.

Balance Typhon’s Veil with LoD:

  • Increase Typhon’s 6pc to 1400% to 1500% per head.

Not required, but would be nice:
Shift multiplier from Magistrate to Serpent Sparker:

  • This would free a slot if the player so chooses, and allow for more diversity with Typhon’s Veil and slightly more with Non-seasonal LoD.
Supporting Math

If I have time, I’ll try out Typhon’s again.

EDITs:

  • 3/5/2020: Managed clear of GR122 Non-seasonal. Could definitely clear 123 with better gear (missing 8.3% damage from LoD and cleared without DMG% on weapon) also cleared a minute ahead of the timer, so some minor breathing room there. With a good rift, and swapping in EE, I can definitely see a GR124 possible. However, updated my Chantodo’s estimate as I felt it was a bit low (by at least 1GR). As a result, differences did not change, and recommended increase remains the same.
  • 3/6/2020: Added Test clear GR122 NS, <10 keys spent.
  • 3/6/2020: changed opinion on playstyle. After build adjustments and placing more CDR, Spellsteal actually adds some interest offensively, so I’ve reworded the playstyle section to voice that. Teleport also helps interest. Made note of that as well.
  • (3/7/2020) EDITED: 6x down from 6.5x and 1400%-1500% down from 1550%-1650%. This is due to more playtesting with LoD and Typhon’s Veil, could potentially clear 1 GR higher than originally mapped. Typhon’s is significantly closer to LoD than I originally thought, this is due to my overlooking the extra gem slot. Edited values and estimates for LoD increased by 1 GR.
7 Likes
33

It’s only at 1300 and I think it’s going to need more juice than that honestly, but I’ll let you give it a good live whirl grind test so you can come up with your own number. Many are thinking 2k.

That’s really high, but I trust your judgement. I do agree that if it stays at 300% (4x) that LoD Mammoth on NS is dead in the water. It’s like a glorified zdps that happens to also do a little bit of damage. IMO they simply need to revert it back to 450%, there was no need to touch it after PTR ended.

But my question here is, how do we solve this problem now? You know they don’t like adjusting legendaries after patch drop because there will be that one guy (and probably a lot more than one) that used all their mats to make a primal 300% SS and complain to no end that they now adjusted it to 550 or whatever. I am just very doubtful we’ll see these items changed for this patch. That’s why I suggest juicing up the 6pc more, because that’s the more realistic and harmless option.

Thanks for all your testing and feedback with this, looking forward to your Typhoon analysis.

1 Like
34

I was thinking the same, just revert, until I was able to experience LoD non seasonal (no archives). I realized I’d been … somewhat okay with the power level at 5.5x on PTR because the seasonal build could compete with Vyr chant non seasonal. But that’s not the compare we should be making.

The archives bonus actually gives a significant increase in clear potential for this build, but it’s irrelevant when trying to achieve a better balance.

This is why I recommended the higher value (550%) for SS, Magistrate.

Interesting. I was thinking similar until looking into the multiplier in comparison to Mammoth.

It’s possible Mammoth benefits more from Area damage than the other runes, and I am not accounting for differences such as that.

On the other hand, I forgot to note that Typhon’s gets an extra legendary gem,

Or that LoD can fit in more elemental %, and either: hit the 24 FPA BP with Witching Hour (extra CHD too) or Run Aquila + EE.

I will take another look later today. But my guess is that things like these would even out / cancel out some.

1 Like
35

Both TV hydra and LOD hydra are currently 6+ GR behind Chantodo which is already 4 GR behind Rend Barb/Crus. This means hydra set is currently 10 GR behind barb/crus which makes it totally DOA as a new set.

There are great suggestions to increase multiplier of SS and Magistrates back to 500% to make it competitive. I sincerely hope Blizzard can see that they over nerfed SS and Magistrates and start to at least acknowledge that.

The build has so much potential but was nerfed into the ground.

2 Likes
36

Now you know how DHs feel…we’ve had ZERO love at all for 2 patches now…

I had a play with the new hydra set a few nights ago, was quite happy with it. Note: NS. 105 clear with 7 mins to spare @ p2700. No augments, 1 primal, 3 ancients, the rest ordinary legendary items, nothing optimised.

Pretty sure I can do a 110 too, but it’d probably only barely. Stricken in the mid 110s, trapped at 120 and enforcer in the 50s (so room for improvement there too). But, a 110 without any augments etc is pretty good if you ask me.

I’m pretty sure once it’s fully decked out, it’ll easily beat what my impale s6 DH can do, which is mostly primal with optimised gear and higher lgems.

1 Like
37

Or, perhaps the other 2 builds are OP AF and should be nerfed? Just sayin’.

The power creep is definitely real in D3.

I have an amazing idea - let’s nerf all other sets & builds to the lowly performance of the DH class. Oh, and remove the ability for all other sets & builds to enjoy group play too (builds only do solo, and don’t perform at all in group play). There you go.

Now stop whining.

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Hi MasterJay, I took another look at the Missing items and skills from the rough calc I’ve been tending.

Trapped multiplier favoring Typhon’s Veil would about equal the gains that LoD would have from Elemental Exposure and extra Elemental % on gear. There would likely be some amount in favor of Typhon’s though, especially if you’re only hitting 3/4 stacks EE and only 20% elemental gain instead of 40%.

Alternately, you could run the extra 50% CHD from the Witching Hour on LoD with the 24 FPA BP. That’s 25% increase for the frame, and about 9.2% for the extra CHD with not using EE (defensive passive would be recommended there to make up toughness). While this may seem like the better setup on paper, you also have to lose a lot of AD or ring affixes to AS to hit the 24 FPA BP, so there are other trade-offs.

  • 40% with 4 stacks EE ~=54% multiplier, which ~= that of Trapped @ lvl 130. No advantage for either build.
  • 20% with 3 stacks EE ~=31.4% multiplier, 22.5% less overall (~1.33GR in favor of TV).
  • FPA decrease, 50% CHD =~36.5% multiplier, 17.5% less overall (~1 GR in favor of TV).

Worst case, it’s 1.33GR in favor of Typhon’s Veil there. Hence the recommended range being on the lower side, starting at 1550% per head.

Toughness could make a big difference also. LoD can fit in more if desired, whereas TV likely cannot, and would therefore be more vulnerable to Squirt’s breakage, which in turn reduces damage output.

This could again tip the scales in favor of LoD, hence the higher end of 1650% still being a decent suggestion as well.

The lower toughness could actually account for a good chunk of Squirt’s downtime. This is probably the largest point in favor of arguing for more than 1650% per head, and why perhaps we are seeing suggestions of 2000%.

How to measure the amount of breakage though, and downtime, I am not sure how to do that. If we could, we’d be able to better estimate the upper range. I know the build has x% less toughness as compared to LoD, but even with LoD you drop Stone gauntlets (non-seasonal) or drop OID (seasonal) sometimes, you drop Aquila on rare occasion, so toughness is largely variable, especially if you’re running APDs on the Typhon’s build.

Say, 25% downtime at 0 or 1 stack though, you’d need around 2000% on the 6 piece required to equal out LoD at near 100% squirt’s uptime.

So, I guess I can see the reason for this suggestion, I’m just not sure if I’m keen to agree with it yet, given the potential for players to still avoid damage and get milder mobsets that still provide high progression (and therefore allow Typhon’s to keep higher Squirt’s uptime even with lower average toughness overall).

Also consider: the only critically important uptime is during CoE damage phases, and both builds could still do most of their damage within those windows, even if Squirt’s breaks after that phase.

2 Likes
39

Hey Cratic, thank you for your response and feedback! I hadn’t even considered the gem advantage for Typhon’s, that would indeed point the 6pc more in the direction of late teen 00’s instead of 20 00’s per head. Either way the 1300% is certainly not cutting it. But correct, I definitely see the LoD LB highest clears right now being inline with where a maxed TV would be because of the Squirts downtime factor.

I also believe that’s not their intent, seeing the last two updates they definitely want TV to be the clear winner, but that doesn’t mean Mammoth needed to take such a drastic hit either.

Looking forward to more of your tests with Typhon set up.

1 Like
40

ok guys i typed to about hydra and i felt it s…ks. i made wd yesterday and did 4pl run, me dd 1 monk heal 1monk heal learning(low par) and 1 zbarb. 125 was a walk in the park so if oyu wanna do higher gr id say switch to wd. They really have to buff hydra and best thing hydra would target what you target as wizz. Lets hope devs see the feedback from ptr you dont draw that conclusion

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Most welcome! I agree with the overall sentiment.

As a side note I have added the video of my low key investment GR122 clear to the post above as an example. If I had better gear, could have ran EE instead of Evocation.

However I really enjoyed having the increased CDR (~28%). This reduced the internal cool down in regards to ES procs, and provided higher uptime of Spellsteal, Safe passage (if required) and more regular pulls.

Having teleport to more readily reposition also helps out in this regard.

As a result of this, I’ve edited also my initial take on the interest the build provides as this does fill the space where offensively, interest was very lacking.

I wouldn’t say that this completely fills that void, but it at least makes me moderately interested to play the non seasonal LoD Hydra build now.

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42

I’ve completed my non-seasonal testing of Typhon’s Veil in solo push.

Clear potential

Managed a GR123, 2 minutes ahead, and was about 45s behind on a GR124.

This is at 2k paragon simulated (used my extra paragon as simulated augments and ancients. I was wearing a lot of non-ancient gear). ~30 keys used in testing.

https://ptr.d3planner.com/345101315

With higher effort fishing, perhaps 200 or more keys, I can see a GR125 possible for Typhon’s @ 2kp, especially with a power pylon on the RG.

Gearwise, I was missing about 40% possible area damage, and 20% cold, but made up for the last with an extra 1k INT, in the very least. So some minor extra potential there (less than about half a GR). Going higher in GR though would most certainly challenge toughness even more, and possibly result in more Squirt’s downtime, which is of course, a pretty significant loss of multiplier, so in all, the extra INT wasn’t so bad at this paragon, given that Absolute Zero was there to supplement Cold%.

Karini worn with Tri affix is a possibility, but there is also the chance at 2k paragon that you’d be stuck like in this test, with an ancient RoRG instead. Maybe 4% damage increase there.

Mechanics Notations:
  • Noted Hydra head death order still not matching FIFO ordering in regards to hydra spawn order.
  • 4pc shielding issue appears to be resolved, but still felt fairly squishy at times.
Gameplay / Style

Very similar to LoD with Black hole, but this build can opt to manually cast Black hole more often, since there is no constraint on resource. Absolute zero also has a longer duration. This actually made it a little more easygoing to play, and easier to gear for item affix-wise. Because of the channeling changes though, felt bad to have to cast manually, at the cost of some amount of channel, but was good the option was there if CC was required.

Similarly, Frost Hydra as a choice is more easygoing. While I chose Audacity for my push, I could easily see players opting for Power Hungry and the build would still work fairly well. This is because Frost Hydra chills before damage, and therefore can apply Trapped at range. Generally I preferred Audacity as this was the better option for synergy with the black hole in density. The attack from Frost Hydra is also fairly short range, similar to Mammoth Hydra.

However, because so many item slots are tied up with multipliers (looking at you magistrate), the toughness is still an issue. Often, if my Karini fell I’d get oneshot. Elite affixes were noticeably more damaging, and Squirt’s uptime was more in contention.

Similarly frustrating is respawning or level transitions. You have to resummon the Hydras to get the 4pc DR. Takes a full 2-2.5s to cast two hydras, Storm armor, and MW:D to get all of your toughness active. Forgetting to cast Hydra after transitioning levels is also really painful and punishing.

Taeguk was one of the biggest upsides to this playstyle. The toughness from this item was actually nice to have, and though it was a Stricken-less push build, it felt good to destroy the rift, and have the extra ramp up damage there. It’s especially nice to have Taeguk in the additive pool, because Absolute zero is boosting our Cold%, not additive like Spellsteal.

While it felt bad to have to channel to keep up Taeguk when I didn’t have the increased damage from channeling multipliers at times, the gem itself still made the gameplay more interesting. It makes you feel like you’re doing something with your channel other than only using it for the rune and DW + ES multipliers.

Toughness was more in contention (by this measure you could say that more attention was paid to not taking damage). This lent the feeling that I was babysitting the Squirt’s more than I had to at times, especially when engaging bad or unfavorable mob types (means more fishing). However, it felt all the more rewarding to keep up Squirt’s in time for CoE Cold.

The inclusion of Illusionist made mobility less problematic, and also felt great for moving into Oculus ring spawns quickly or dodging elite affixes.

Knockbacks, fear, CC, Frozen, still an issue with this build, same as with LoD, however, it feels even more like with TV you have less option for immunity items. Best bet is just go as high as possible on CC% reductions. I can see potentially placing Invigorating gemstone as the best alternate option, at the cost of quite a lot of multiplier or additive damage.

Summary & Revised Multiplier Recommendations

TV is at about the same clear potential as my 2kp test for LoD. Difference here was I spent more keys getting the GR123 down with TV as compared to LoD, with TV I used about 30 keys trying to get a rift with adequate elites and decent mobtype, pylons.

I have adjusted my estimate in the larger post about LoD above for both the SS and Magistrate values and TV 6pc.

Now recommended:

  • SS / Magi: 500% (6x)
  • TV 6pc: 1400% to 1500%.

At 6x, 1500% this is:

  • 5.16 GR increase for LoD.
  • 6.07 GR increase for Typhon’s Veil.

Compared to current 4x, 1300%.

For the 6.5x down to 6x adjustment, I reason that LoD had slightly more potential than I explored in it.

The reasoning behind the decrease in my TV 6pc recommendation is twofold. While the toughness issues did come into effect (my Squirt’s multiplier was down a significant amount of time with the TV build in testing), managing the toughness and avoiding damage properly results in higher uptime, and I can see how TV could provide more damage than we originally thought.

Even still, I have the feeling it could still use a little more separation from LoD via the 6 piece.

Other recommendations
  • I want to reiterate the need for more space in this build item wise. The fact that we are required to cube or use RoRG with the set to attain even a moderate AS BP, and still don’t have options for defense, offense, or utility here is kind of upsetting. As before, my recommended is to shift all multiplier from the Magistrate to Serpent sparker, and enhance the crowd control mechanics of Magistrate to make it even more appealing (perhaps Deep Freeze, Bone Chill, Cold Snap runes of Frost nova provided?).
  • Would be nice if Hydra head death order matched FIFO ordering in regards to hydra spawn order. As in, Hydra heads die off the hydra that was first summoned, so that when a recast is issued, it always replaces any heads lost from that hydra.
  • Why no base toughness from the 4 piece yet?
  • Also, why do the shoulders still roll with the +Armor item affix as a default? This is a terrible default, no Wizard will want this on their shoulderpiece.
Supporting Math

That’s about it for Typhon’s at the moment. If I think of other things, I’ll add them in later.

EDITs
  • 3/7/2020: Initial Version.
5 Likes
43

Very nice, thank you Cratic great run and you opened my eyes to Teaguk, definitely the gem of choice for this.

Btw the 4pc actually does have base toughness now, casting hydras you gain more toughness. I’m not entirely sure if this is what you meant though by that but that’s something that wasn’t working in PTR.

I respect your recommended modification, but I also feel that giving tame buffs to the 6pc whilst increasing the hydra items by a sizeable amount will leave TV largely ignored for LoD Mammoth like it was on PTR, besides maybe group play. I really feel that they had it right with 450% and again no idea why they decided to change it.

Like right now you’re saying they’re pretty even solo with maybe Mammoth having the advantage with gearing, well if you buff them by 300 > 500 LoD will just be much better while 6pc getting a poultry 1300 > 1500 won’t really do much good. See what I mean? Also LoD Mammoth can reverse archon in NS where TV cannot…that’s going to make a gigantic difference as well.

That’s why 2k mod 6pc would IMO make more sense here, while of course rebuffing SS/Magistrate.

Either way, we’re all in agreement a change must be made, so that’s a good thing. Now just pray they listen.

1 Like
44

Aye, Taeguk definitely fills a lot of gaps, even with dropping Stricken. I had thought about Pain Enhancer, but with TnT in the mix, the multiplier items and Taeguk are just more consistent in solo with how massive Hydra’s breakpoints are.

The base toughness mention was in reference to some method of passive DR, regardless of if a Hydra is summoned or not. Perhaps if half the bonus DR were provided in this manner it might not make deaths and transitions so jarring. The values from the separate sources of toughness would have to be adjusted to equate to 80% DR though…

Thank you for the review! At this low of paragon, I felt the stone gauntlets were necessary for Squirt’s uptime with LoD. The 24 FPA BP would be nice to have offensively, and as the leaderboards show, it can most certainly make a difference in favor of LoD.

Typhon’s Veil felt surprisingly strong in comparison to the 30 FPA LoD NS Hydra. Offensively, it feels between the two (30 FPA BP NS LoD and 24 FPA LoD NS LoD). The set should be less difficult to gear for also.

Squirt’s downtime is really what is holding back the damage potential of TV on most rifts. It’s close enough though that shielding will hold in many engagements. This makes, say, placement of additional toughness via Esoteric or UW (30-54% multiplier tradeoff) feel less required.

My thought was we could increase the damage of both LoD and TV, while still giving Typhon’s about a 1 GR increase relative to LoD.

LoD Mammoth Hydra would still be end game for those higher pushing, higher paragon players, but Typhon’s would have enough damage and ease of configuration for lower paragon players to prefer for this purpose, as well as give those players something else to work towards.

LoD Mammoth at 30 FPA would still be appealing for lower paragon players due to it’s configurable / tanky nature, but perhaps not quite as powerful offensively as Typhon’s Veil after the suggested change.

1 Like
45

Honestly, I’m over it at this point. Either Blizzard will admit they screwed the pooch and buff Hydra for S20 start, or Hydra set will never be buffed. I don’t think there is any in-between anymore.

Firebird’s has been non-viable for like…4 years or something. DMO is a steaming pile, and Tal’s just needs a 5 minute change of a larger multiplier. Hasn’t happened.

     I bought R.O.S. despite my misgivings because developers promised every legendary would be exciting. 6 years later, 90% of them are still useless.
1 Like
46

Why use frost hydra? Arcane shoots several projectiles each with a chance to proc AD or be a crit, it does AoE in 10 yards, and it’s much better at dealing with nasty affixes or highly mobile RG. Also it has much larger aggro range than frost hydra, so you can more safely find an object to hide behind and channel unninterupted.

Am running taeguk BoTrapped and enforcer and I can’t say I miss stricken so far for RG, my 110 RG kills (irrelevant of boss spawn) are all under 1m (no power or haste pylon in effect).

They really need to either up 6pc to 2k, or make it 1500-1600 and add a 2nd arcane spender to the bonus (like tornado or arcane orb or heck even one of the channel spells).

If they buff Magistrate and SS, then LoD will pull even further ahead in S20 (because you have so much more room to choose what to cube and what to wear), so we will need an even higher multiplier for 6pc to be at least on same level of LoD (and LoD toughness gets insane compared to static of the set).

Meanwhile I enjoy TV for speeds, normal build with aether scepter and arcane presence and I can keep up with 6-7k para monks / UE DH / WD etc and even get ahead without any worries of something breaking my shields, and stuff just dies when you drop 2 hydras, for RG can channel a bit to kill it in under 5s. Also amazing for bounties! :smiley:

To me my dear fellow wizards, it all comes down in S20 to being worth to get the set instead of going LoD (personally hate Vyr playstyle). If they are adjusted to be similar, then I 100% get the set and roll with it to perfect it during S20 as I already have tons of items and mats to make a LoD at any time NS.

Cheers <3