That’s really unimpressive, give him 10k para with 130 auggies and better gear and they’d barely scratch 134-135 then? Similar geared WD already cleared 138, give them same stats they’ll have +10 GR easily.
Remember guys, the minimum base of power at paragon 5k they’re looking at is 130. This guy should be doing 130+ without much hassle. I just don’t see neither LoD mammoth or ToV near this. Neither is Barbs new set either. WD of course is already here, a bit past this but that’s fine.
Yah I’m 100% under the impression SS/Magistrate was overnerfed. I dunno about you guys. Was chatting with another wizard BossDogg about this, like all our other skill mods that got any decent love over the years do 400-1200% x 2 pieces/3 like Arcane Orb, Meteor, ET why only 300% for hydra? It’s not like they do 1000% weapon damage lol.
I mean I’m not talking crazy here, it just makes sense!
No not the strongest for solo of course, and Vyr’s will always be miles ahead of any other imaginable wiz build, because of the sheer tankines, passive dmg from chantodo and insane mobility.
Once more, the DR feels fine, but the damage isn’t there, period. If they intend to keep magistrate and sparker as they are being concerned about LoD being “better” than the set they just made and wanna show off, then put more into 6pc really, 2000% per head should be MINIMUM, anything less with the current 300% on M&S is just not going to do anything.
Plus, unlike other sets or LoD, it only buffs hydra damage, anything else is irrelevant, which also means that those hydras should better have some teeth and not just a weak bite.
Was sort of comparing it with WD Helltooth garg, with less mobility, less safety, and pets that aren’t real pets (ie: they are not attracting enemy attention in any way). Sure for T16 is fun and onwards to 90’s but then you start going uphill and is not a gentle slope, it gets very steep very fast.
Yes arcane hydras are great in group when stuff is grouped, but they literally blow (worse than meteor shower) vs anything that moves around (ghosts, flyers etc) they shoot where the target “was” and not where it’s headed, so you end up with less dps than frost or mammoth in those scenarios.
LoD hydra Wizard has cleared a 137 so far. That’s more inline with where it should be atm. By the end of the era it will be at least another 5 GRifts. Mundu WD is just op like ww barb
Thanks for pointing that out, I’ll update the post
I actually had TnT in that planner originally, but swapped them out when I realized we can’t fit them and teleport or illusory boots without giving up something big. The original ias buffs were just added to make up for the d3planner cap on Pain Enhancer, which is less than we can get with a good pixel stomp from zbarb
Zbarb always brings immunity with Ignore Pain in 4 player, so you are totally wrong here. Also not sure why you think the huge dr from Stone Gauntlets is a bad thing??? We want to avoid taking hp damage to keep our hydras you know.
Lol. Are you kidding me dude? Trying to one-up a non-season setup with a seasonal build?
I’m not sure why you have stricken, or why you put trapped instead of enforcer? You also have no illusory boots or teleport, so I’m not sure how you expect to move into Oculus with that. If this is a solo build, your toughness is way to low. If this is a group build, you aren’t a Necro, and you have no mobility
Yep, I’m wrong. Guess I’m rusty with the 4p meta being as I didn’t play Bazooka so thanks for explaining that about IP, didn’t know that.
Lol I’m not trying to one up it, much like you I’m just bringing it to light. Moving into Oculus isn’t that hard w/o those, but yes you won’t have it 100% of the time I suppose, so much like the AS shrines I should remove that from my planner. Noted.
And that’s my point as well, we’re talking about NS base power, I’m not using the seasonal example for the base power of the set, which I’m arguing is still behind.
I’ll agree the toughness might be too low for the lack of mobility, it’s possible that one of the gems will have to be switched out for a defensive one. Trapped also slows nearby enemies and is the exact same % as enforcer. Hydras are immune to damage anyway so it’s effect is wasted. Stricken is the way to go IMO with so much pet AS, with very little choices for RGK and especially if a WD is around, it actually comes very in handy, even with arcane hydras. Either way losing a dps gem here or not getting an oculus there really doesn’t matter too much if you’re getting up to a x5 mod with reverse archon… can’t really ignore that power, at least I’m not going to
But if you’re worried about having Illusory boots and more DR, could always reverse archon LoD Mammoth! Not nearly as potent as ToV Arcane hydra but hey, could be a thing to make it relevant and much easier to work with. It cleared a 138 solo 6k para on PTR, but that was before the ninja ‘adjustment’ of 450 > 300.
The bugs introduced during PTR version 1 caused some testers to do LON/LOD versions instead so much so it defeated the Hydra set. This caused DEVs to nerf the Hydra support items for PTR version 2.
Not enough, LON/LOD still kept pushing and at times performing just as much if not better than the Hydra set. This prompted DEVs to further nerf the Hydra items.
Might be so but… the issue is more like LoN/LoD performing better (no bugs, stronger and simpler to play) with a certain skill (Hydra) than the set dedicated to it. Doesn’t that mean the set itself needs to be looked at because it pales in comparison? The first nerf to the complementary items was okay (they were a bit too strong if we are honest), while the first buff to the set was not good enough. The second nerf bat was not needed. Instead they should have boosted the set to bring it on par or above LoD/LoN.
The new set lacks toughness and dmg. Not a contender for Vyrs. LoD version lacks dmg so it’s 3-4 GRs better than the set but that’s all.
I tested with arcane hydra, I love how hydras look.
Tested LoD Mammoth Hydra. Tried a few non-seasonal iterations, ended up with an Ice Climber + Stone Gauntlet + Teleport build that was easier to manage defensively.
Good Things
Hydra attacking slow after summon appears to be fixed for all runes. Haven’t tested with Typhon’s yet, but definitely will be much more fluid for low GR and Nephalem speeds.
Haven’t tested the Set head death order yet, but if it indeed has been fixed for FIFO then that’s also good.
Per other players, shields issue with TV 4pc bug is fixed.
It’s Hydra!
Clear Potential
Cleared GR122 with <10 keys, and this is with primal weapon, unaugmented at 21k INT (about 2000 paragon equivalent).
Test Build, note: ran Evocation in the video, but perfect gearing with CDR glove, shoulder would allow to run EE as a passive, at the cost of 20% AD and 10% toughness.
https://ptr.d3planner.com/721355698
I think with better RNG on the rift, and perhaps a slightly better gameplay or build, GR124 is readily possible at this power level, and GR125 with higher level of effort (~200 keys).
Compare this to seasonal, where you get Echoing Fury and OID, a 1.4x multiplier and an AS increase that places your hydras at 1.67x damage. Granted, EF would not be up all the time, so assuming with 3/4 uptime, you’re talking about a total of ~1.75 multiplier over Non-seasonal. This is about 3.5 GRs increase.
Rounding up, we might clear GR129 in season at 2k paragon, if lucky and a good player, using a good build. This is really low, if you compare with Vyr Chantodo, which can already topple GR130 at this same paragon non-seasonal, and in season will likely hit around GR133, with great effort.
Non-Seasonal LoD Mammoth Playstyle
Non seasonal LoD definitely lacks toughness in comparison to the seasonal (which can include OID). You’re forced to manage this lack of toughness by either using APDs or Stone Gauntlets+ABBs, meaning no Ranslors.
The non-seasonal LoD Mammoth build itself is not quite as interesting to play compared to an archives seasonal build. However, it maintains moderate level of interest. Defensively we are worried about:
Channeling uptime during CoE
Making sure Squirt’s is active
Positioning of Hydras
Storm armor / Karini uptime.
Getting hit for Stone Gauntlets / or freezing for APDs (happens all the time in density). IMO, Halo of Arlyse + APDs is much more engaging on this front, but that’s too low of toughness in comparison to these other options + Halo of Karini.
While this is a good base, I don’t think this is enough to make it overly engaging, especially offensively.
Edit: since having adjusted cooldown, the etched sigil procced Spellsteal does add some interest offensively, as it scales damage with density, more regularly procs, and allows pulls of enemies into the river of flame.
Edit: Teleport also makes the build slightly more engaging as you can use this tool offensively by Teleporting to an Oculus ring spawn, or defensively to avoid heavy elite affixes. It also helps move through the rift.
With the seasonal LoD Mammoth build, i really enjoyed items like:
Echoing Fury
Ranslor
Also enjoyed with Hydra in general:
Pain Enhancer
Taeguk
These drastically modified how the build was played, and even make the Hydras attack faster, which felt great. The 30 frame Hydra BP especially, feels really slow to me.
Channeling
The channeling changes requiring 1 full second before damage goes into effect make it such that it is really annoying when you get CC’d (fear, knockback, stun), and this build doesn’t have room for any significant CC other than Spellsteal (on an 11 second base cooldown).
This is probably why I gravitated towards the Ice climbers.
While this does make CC immune and reducing items such as Invigorating and krelm’s more of an option, in a push you’d likely just be fishing for a more perfect rift with very few cc capable elites.
I really don’t like the changes to channeling requiring 1s. We used to be able to still benefit from CoE some if we were crowd controlled during our cycle. Now, even one knockback means you’re losing out on that 3x multiplier for a significant chunk of damage.
The feedback on channeling is also not as swift. By this I mean: the instant gratification of Channeling and seeing the increased damage was more satisfying.
Maintaining a channel used to feel important, now it just feels disconnected.
We used to be able to weave spells without detriment. Now we have to plan ahead, to match CoE.
Overall Impressions
It just feels really lackluster, especially with my having PTR experience with the same build in season, with archives bonus.
It’s a really bad combination to have to deal with channeling on this build after a severe nerf to channeling, and then combine that with a decrease to Hydra multiplier items as compared to PTR.
This build is more on the level of LoD meteor shower at the moment in non-season. I doubt it will be used over Vyr Chantodo.
IMO, Frozen orb, Meteor shower, Twister, EB all need increases to make them more competitive (those balance changes can be saved for later though).
Hydra should at least compete with Vyr Chantodo on an equal level in Non-season.
Recommendations
Multiplier increase to balance Hydra in general:
Increase the multiplier to SS, Magistrate, going up to 6x, 6x multipllier (500%). EDIT: revised values after looking at NS Hydra vs NS chantodo, even at 5.5x, the build would still need +1 GR to compete.
Balance Typhon’s Veil with LoD:
Increase Typhon’s 6pc to 1400% to 1500% per head.
Not required, but would be nice:
Shift multiplier from Magistrate to Serpent Sparker:
This would free a slot if the player so chooses, and allow for more diversity with Typhon’s Veil and slightly more with Non-seasonal LoD.
Supporting Math
If I have time, I’ll try out Typhon’s again.
EDITs:
3/5/2020: Managed clear of GR122 Non-seasonal. Could definitely clear 123 with better gear (missing 8.3% damage from LoD and cleared without DMG% on weapon) also cleared a minute ahead of the timer, so some minor breathing room there. With a good rift, and swapping in EE, I can definitely see a GR124 possible. However, updated my Chantodo’s estimate as I felt it was a bit low (by at least 1GR). As a result, differences did not change, and recommended increase remains the same.
3/6/2020: Added Test clear GR122 NS, <10 keys spent.
3/6/2020: changed opinion on playstyle. After build adjustments and placing more CDR, Spellsteal actually adds some interest offensively, so I’ve reworded the playstyle section to voice that. Teleport also helps interest. Made note of that as well.
(3/7/2020) EDITED: 6x down from 6.5x and 1400%-1500% down from 1550%-1650%. This is due to more playtesting with LoD and Typhon’s Veil, could potentially clear 1 GR higher than originally mapped. Typhon’s is significantly closer to LoD than I originally thought, this is due to my overlooking the extra gem slot. Edited values and estimates for LoD increased by 1 GR.
It’s only at 1300 and I think it’s going to need more juice than that honestly, but I’ll let you give it a good live whirl grind test so you can come up with your own number. Many are thinking 2k.
That’s really high, but I trust your judgement. I do agree that if it stays at 300% (4x) that LoD Mammoth on NS is dead in the water. It’s like a glorified zdps that happens to also do a little bit of damage. IMO they simply need to revert it back to 450%, there was no need to touch it after PTR ended.
But my question here is, how do we solve this problem now? You know they don’t like adjusting legendaries after patch drop because there will be that one guy (and probably a lot more than one) that used all their mats to make a primal 300% SS and complain to no end that they now adjusted it to 550 or whatever. I am just very doubtful we’ll see these items changed for this patch. That’s why I suggest juicing up the 6pc more, because that’s the more realistic and harmless option.
Thanks for all your testing and feedback with this, looking forward to your Typhoon analysis.
I was thinking the same, just revert, until I was able to experience LoD non seasonal (no archives). I realized I’d been … somewhat okay with the power level at 5.5x on PTR because the seasonal build could compete with Vyr chant non seasonal. But that’s not the compare we should be making.
The archives bonus actually gives a significant increase in clear potential for this build, but it’s irrelevant when trying to achieve a better balance.
This is why I recommended the higher value (550%) for SS, Magistrate.
Interesting. I was thinking similar until looking into the multiplier in comparison to Mammoth.
It’s possible Mammoth benefits more from Area damage than the other runes, and I am not accounting for differences such as that.
On the other hand, I forgot to note that Typhon’s gets an extra legendary gem,
Or that LoD can fit in more elemental %, and either: hit the 24 FPA BP with Witching Hour (extra CHD too) or Run Aquila + EE.
I will take another look later today. But my guess is that things like these would even out / cancel out some.
Both TV hydra and LOD hydra are currently 6+ GR behind Chantodo which is already 4 GR behind Rend Barb/Crus. This means hydra set is currently 10 GR behind barb/crus which makes it totally DOA as a new set.
There are great suggestions to increase multiplier of SS and Magistrates back to 500% to make it competitive. I sincerely hope Blizzard can see that they over nerfed SS and Magistrates and start to at least acknowledge that.
The build has so much potential but was nerfed into the ground.
Now you know how DHs feel…we’ve had ZERO love at all for 2 patches now…
I had a play with the new hydra set a few nights ago, was quite happy with it. Note: NS. 105 clear with 7 mins to spare @ p2700. No augments, 1 primal, 3 ancients, the rest ordinary legendary items, nothing optimised.
Pretty sure I can do a 110 too, but it’d probably only barely. Stricken in the mid 110s, trapped at 120 and enforcer in the 50s (so room for improvement there too). But, a 110 without any augments etc is pretty good if you ask me.
I’m pretty sure once it’s fully decked out, it’ll easily beat what my impale s6 DH can do, which is mostly primal with optimised gear and higher lgems.
Or, perhaps the other 2 builds are OP AF and should be nerfed? Just sayin’.
The power creep is definitely real in D3.
I have an amazing idea - let’s nerf all other sets & builds to the lowly performance of the DH class. Oh, and remove the ability for all other sets & builds to enjoy group play too (builds only do solo, and don’t perform at all in group play). There you go.
Hi MasterJay, I took another look at the Missing items and skills from the rough calc I’ve been tending.
Trapped multiplier favoring Typhon’s Veil would about equal the gains that LoD would have from Elemental Exposure and extra Elemental % on gear. There would likely be some amount in favor of Typhon’s though, especially if you’re only hitting 3/4 stacks EE and only 20% elemental gain instead of 40%.
Alternately, you could run the extra 50% CHD from the Witching Hour on LoD with the 24 FPA BP. That’s 25% increase for the frame, and about 9.2% for the extra CHD with not using EE (defensive passive would be recommended there to make up toughness). While this may seem like the better setup on paper, you also have to lose a lot of AD or ring affixes to AS to hit the 24 FPA BP, so there are other trade-offs.
40% with 4 stacks EE ~=54% multiplier, which ~= that of Trapped @ lvl 130. No advantage for either build.
20% with 3 stacks EE ~=31.4% multiplier, 22.5% less overall (~1.33GR in favor of TV).
FPA decrease, 50% CHD =~36.5% multiplier, 17.5% less overall (~1 GR in favor of TV).
Worst case, it’s 1.33GR in favor of Typhon’s Veil there. Hence the recommended range being on the lower side, starting at 1550% per head.
Toughness could make a big difference also. LoD can fit in more if desired, whereas TV likely cannot, and would therefore be more vulnerable to Squirt’s breakage, which in turn reduces damage output.
This could again tip the scales in favor of LoD, hence the higher end of 1650% still being a decent suggestion as well.
The lower toughness could actually account for a good chunk of Squirt’s downtime. This is probably the largest point in favor of arguing for more than 1650% per head, and why perhaps we are seeing suggestions of 2000%.
How to measure the amount of breakage though, and downtime, I am not sure how to do that. If we could, we’d be able to better estimate the upper range. I know the build has x% less toughness as compared to LoD, but even with LoD you drop Stone gauntlets (non-seasonal) or drop OID (seasonal) sometimes, you drop Aquila on rare occasion, so toughness is largely variable, especially if you’re running APDs on the Typhon’s build.
Say, 25% downtime at 0 or 1 stack though, you’d need around 2000% on the 6 piece required to equal out LoD at near 100% squirt’s uptime.
So, I guess I can see the reason for this suggestion, I’m just not sure if I’m keen to agree with it yet, given the potential for players to still avoid damage and get milder mobsets that still provide high progression (and therefore allow Typhon’s to keep higher Squirt’s uptime even with lower average toughness overall).
Also consider: the only critically important uptime is during CoE damage phases, and both builds could still do most of their damage within those windows, even if Squirt’s breaks after that phase.
Hey Cratic, thank you for your response and feedback! I hadn’t even considered the gem advantage for Typhon’s, that would indeed point the 6pc more in the direction of late teen 00’s instead of 20 00’s per head. Either way the 1300% is certainly not cutting it. But correct, I definitely see the LoD LB highest clears right now being inline with where a maxed TV would be because of the Squirts downtime factor.
I also believe that’s not their intent, seeing the last two updates they definitely want TV to be the clear winner, but that doesn’t mean Mammoth needed to take such a drastic hit either.
Looking forward to more of your tests with Typhon set up.
ok guys i typed to about hydra and i felt it s…ks. i made wd yesterday and did 4pl run, me dd 1 monk heal 1monk heal learning(low par) and 1 zbarb. 125 was a walk in the park so if oyu wanna do higher gr id say switch to wd. They really have to buff hydra and best thing hydra would target what you target as wizz. Lets hope devs see the feedback from ptr you dont draw that conclusion
