Yeah, but you do that by actually becoming a better player, not by artificially having the numbers on your items buffed. Having the numbers on items buffed does not make you a better player, it just creates the illusion of you having become better.
But youâre not hearing that from Barbs, are you?
In fact, youâre hearing the opposite. Weâre advocating for more buffs to SS and HOTA. Weâll continue to advocate for buffs for our other builds.
We are NOT advocating for a nerf to Rend just to make the other builds feel better. That is NOT the right way to go about things.
See my previous post.
As for defaming people, hardly. Barbs have gotten zip for years, and every time we almost get something, folks crying for nerfs help to get it taken away. Weâre sick of it.
Asking for nerfs? We donât wan you here. Itâs that simple.
Not quite.
Rage is one of the best MOTE players out there, but he canât get to GR 130 by getting better at the build. In fact, most of the builds have an incredibly low skill cap. You climb higher by gathering more main stat, bigger multipliers, and ranking up your legendary gems and Augments. Itâs a numbers grind, not a skill grind.
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Yeah I forgot itâs better to fight a boss for 20-40 minutes just to kill it like in Vanilla D3 on the highiest difficulty in the game rightâŚ
Thatâs what defines a great player right? 
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Okay, and why shouldnât these outlier builds not be nerfed? Why?
These are artificial numbers. It also could be GR50, GR80, GR100, GR120 or whatever.
It doesnât matter if a build is the strongest by being able to clear GR80 or if it is the strongest by being able to clearing GR140. It still is the strongest.
Well, I disagree.
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But anyway, for now I suggest a ceasefire for a few hours, since the Blizzcon stream is going to start in about 10 minutes. I will get back to you all in a few hours.
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Another point is that if this barb buff is nerfed as in 2.6.1 and 115-125 plowing case, then the next time when wiz,dh and others are buffed, barb will still be the underdog.
Historically barbarian class is left at the bottom of the dps chain. Since we know this, we know that barb buffs must overshoot a bit. We know it will be surpassed and be irrelevant within a season.
Unfortunately poor and irresponsible management and development processes put this game in this situation.
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Look this game has had very little added in content and very few balance patches over the years.
You take what you can getâŚthatâs the bottom line.
Barbs were in desperate need of some buffs. Free and Rage gave a buff proposal which included inter class balance. The devs didnât take that route completely and instead buffed a couple builds and really buffed up WW.
You take what you can getâŚ
Years of requestsâŚyou take what you can get.
You can request balance all you like and if Blizz ever does do another balance patch for classesâŚI recommend you take what you can get 
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Wait a second. Is all this stemming from you trying to prove Free is a hypocrite?
Also, what you think is fun or not fun is highly subjective. How could you prove what level of fun each person is having?
Youâre right. It appears one of my teachers were wrong again.
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Because it lowers the entire classâs clear potential and is not fun.
Itâs obviously more fun when your build is more powerfulâfaster in T16, more durable in GRs, etc. It feels better. It makes the game, which is already paper thin, a lot more fun.
No, theyâre not. Theyâre the current numbers based on the game, its limitations, and the state of itemization and Paragon. Claiming theyâre articifial is false relativism, the idea that everything is arbitrary and we can set the bar anywhere, and that ignores the ways in which the game progress by challenging you to overcome scaling difficulty on a timer.
No.
Thereâs no disagreement. Youâre wrong. Iâve explained to you in concrete terms why powercreep is a fundamental part of the game. The only alternative is a static level of power that never actually pushes up a GR tier. No one wants that, even folks who think they do.
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So ok. How is this discussion must go?
Lets assume that for balance we nerf classes.
- Shall we nerf Wizards by 19 GRs then
- Nerf demon hunters by 15 GRs
- How about nerfing Necro by 17 GRs
- Then lets buff barb and monk by about 15GRs
- Buff crusader by 5 GRs
- Buff wd by 7 GRs
I wonder how this soundsâŚ
I am sure those defending nerf for balance would be against this by a large margin.
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Slam dunk with a facialâŚ
Wish I could give more likes!!
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The discussion reminded me a southpark episode:
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Thatâs literally the most inaccurate comment Iâve ever read in this forum, in all these years.
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Prokahn,
Lets not exaggerate. You looked at era 11 balance. Wizards were clearly outliers in your analysis. You claimed that 5 classes were well-balanced.
You nerf wizards a bit. (Demon Hunters if you insist that they are an outlier that I disagree with) and you bring other classes up a bit. We are done. All classes have similar power. No one feels the need to complain about an OP class.
We are not talking about nerfing wizards 19 GRS (137.7-19=128.7*) vs. buffng barbs by 15 GRs (126.7+15=141.7). This would make it even more imbalanced than what the barb buff proposal claimed was an issue that needed the dire attention of the developers.
The barb buff proposal claimed that barbs needed 4.1 greater rifts to be balanced. If they get more power great. #1 is great. I just argue that #1 by a lot is not a good idea.
- These numbers were based on Free/Rageâs babr buff proposal. The numbers are out of date but there seem to be in the right ballpark relative to the current situation.
P.S. This is NOT my table. It was the table that Free/Rage used to illustrate their point, because tables have value to summarize data.
From the barb 2.6.6 buff proposal of Free/Rage
Class / NA / EU / AS / Average
Barb: 125.7 / 127.7 / 126.8 / 126.7
Cru: 130.0 / 132.1 / 129.7 / 130.6
DH: 129.0 / 131.2 / 129.9 / 130.0
Monk: 125.4 / 129.3 / 127.6 / 127.4
Nec: 130.8 / 135.3 / 131.2 / 132.4
WD: 130.2 / 132.2 / 129.8 / 130.7
Wiz: 136.0 / 138.9 / 138.3 / 137.7
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Lol, this is a good one Proey 
Yeah, this argument is so dumb that it is not even fun. I love how some guys are using this âuhhh I care about balanceâ argument while balance according to them is achieved when 2 classes are top dps for past 2 years and thus, this balance must be protected.
I didnât really play almost 2 years. I didnât login for like a year. But from what Iâve read meanwhile, nothing have really changed. It is perfectly fine for Wiz and Necro to dominate all that time, because game is balanced that way. God forbid this balance changes and there are other classes that can actually get to same GR levels, this ruins the superiority of couple classes.
Let all classes get to 150 solo on couple builds. Game should have an end. Biggest mistake ever done in D3 was the lack of that end, and now people donât know what to do with them selfâs when they see that this end will be reached, sooner than later.
I will not be comparing D3 to âthat other gameâ but the reason why I personally love to play it is simple. Game have simple landmarks (red maps/shaper dps/Uber elder) and all you need to do is reach them. Any build. Any skill. Any class. Any Archetype. Sure, gg endgame char will do a map in 1:45 and UE in sub 2 min, but this does not mean that you cannot have your own build achieve same goalposts with less efficient times.
Why D3 couldnât have that plateau for so long is beyond me. Devs should never have listen to âgimme infinite progression gameâ requests, because this infinite progression is +5 mainstat that is meaningless.
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Yeah man, their righteous claim ânerf is ok for balanceâ can be a wild dog coming back at them for a large bite. I am also playing that game with no name, not playing d3 for a while. Also more regularly playing warframe now.
Man those devs are really smt.
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Savage,
I called for a nerf to wizards in GD and in the patch 2.6.6 PTR feedback forum.I am glad that it is happening. This is not about me âprotectingâ wizards. Also, I am okay with the nerf to necromancers. I play necromancers but I understand why it is happening. If you look at the 2 nerfs that are happening this patch, there is not a âhugeâ outrage coming from either wizards or necromancers. Certainly, there are people who are disappointed but so be it.
The argument is not about whether barbs can be #1 solo. The question is does it makes sense for barbs to be #1 and OP.
Okay, so it seems the Blizzcon stream does not start now, but rather in 1 and a 1/2 hours, so I still ahve some time to respond to you all.
We are talking here about numbers on items, not about game modes. In D2, they didnât tend to buff items over and over again to such ridiculous amounts like it is happening in D3.
Yes, there were the 1.10 runewords of which some were too OP which made a lot of unique items useless. What I would have done in that case would have been to nerf some of the RWâs and buff some of the uniques.
The difference here is that it was never intended for players to reach the GR cap (which is 150). GRâs were the devs attempt for implementing the idea of an âInfinite Dungeonâ that gets increasingly difficult until the player would reach a plateau, a soft cap so to speak.
There is a difference between Paragon and gear. We are talking specifically in the context of gear here.
I actually made a few threads and posts about this issue in the old forum and also a few posts in this new one here.
I actually agree with you on this one.
imo higher difficulties should not just give enemies higher damage and more more life, but focus more on other ways to create more challenge for the player, for example by increasing enemies movement speed, giving them increased CC resistance, increasing monster density, spawning more elites, giving elites more and new affixes, letting things like Molten Explosion trigger sooner, giving enemies new attack and a better AI, etc
Things like enemies life and damage on the other hand should start to stagnate at a certain point, so the game does not become a boring grind where you fight a single elite for 10-20 minutes.
Then I would argue that it is more fun to have a lot of builds at a more or less close level of power (aka reasonable balance), even if it comes with nerfs, since it creates more viable builds, which from my perspective and from the perspective of many other people as well creates more fun, since more builds are viable.
And according to Roldraged, fun is subjective (and he is right with that), so you canâ prove me wrong.
Look, you âAlways Buff, Never Nerfâ guys and the people on the other side who desire balance are almost like The Unstoppable Force and The Immovable Object.
Powercreep is not a fundamental part or aspect of ARPGâs. Just to get back to the classic example of Diablo 2: D2 has not seen any significant changes in +10 years and people still play this game, although there has not been any powercreep. The same thing goes for all the Diablo 2 mods like Path of Diablo or Median XL.
Powercreep is not necessary to keep players playing the game or even to make a good game. You just need to make a good game and regularly provide new content and powercreep is not needed for that at all. It is ridiculous to thing that powercreep is new content. It is not.
There are seasons, in which players can start again and season are separated from each other. So clearing a GR130 in one season is not the same as clearing a GR120 in another season. In non-season it would be, but not in two different seasons. And 95% of the players play season.
I for one wouldnât be against such large nerfs. If I could, I would do that in the blink of an eye without any hesitation (assuming it would lead to reasonable balance).
Yes, it would piss off some people for a while, but after that, there would be a lot more viable builds and that would be good for the overall health of the game in the long run.
Heâs been told many times to not just look at the numbers, and pick them out of the context. Consider the builds and gameplay that got barbs those skewed average numbers. I guess somebody never listens to others. Thatâs what happens when some dudeâs overly obsessed with numbers & datamining and have not actually played the class at a high level.
So lets think this through the top barb clear in the current era is 133 using as you call it gimmicky mechanics. In terms of greater rift efficiency, barbs are not the lowest in terms of efficiency or 2nd lowest for most greater rift levels that most players will reach.
In the new PTR, a barb within 24 hours cleared a greater rift 140 that is 7 greater rifts higher than the best clear in America/EU/Asia combined in non-season. This build does not use gimmicky mechanics. So I class with a top clear of GR 133 that falls within balance is now getting a huge buff. The question is the extent of the buff.
Excluding wizards, is there any other class than is equal to or more powerful than barbs in the next PTR if things go live as is?
Calling a class âOPâ when it is not OP doesnât make it OP.
Problem these days is that people are questioning the obvious, and we have the tough job to prove the obvious.