I get it now. The idea of communism. Blizz the (governing force) should limit every class and every build to the same level. Remove any and all build diversity, power diversity, creativity, competition, and quite literally incentive to do anything.
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Because those aren’t buffs. You don’t get to twist the definitions of words to make them mean what you want.
You don’t take food off everyone’s plate, then tell them that they got buffed to all have the same amount.
GR 140 is the current bar. We’ve seen most classes hit it or come very, very close in non-Season play. Barbs and Monks have, until now, been excluded. Now Barbs have finally achieved some level of cross-class balance, even if it is with only 1 spec.
Unlike you, we don’t wall want to clear GR 100 with all the builds in the same amount of time.
In an ideal world, all our builds would get elevated to be within +/- 3 GRs of one another based on the top performing build, but even then, you have to remember that 2 of those builds rely on gimmicky wall-charging, and 2 of the builds are HOTA, even if they’re radically different. Barbs have so many problems with their items that it’s never all going to be solved. Our proposal solved almost all of them, but obviously we were never going to get everything.
The best we’re ever going to get is Band-Aids. Let’s make sure they’re the biggest, most powerful Band-Aids ever.
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Couldn’t agree more…
Some people don’t get that by nerfing the most powerful build you actually lower the highiest possible GR you can clear in the game.
If a build allows to max clear a 140 GR than if you nerf it you’ll be lucky to do a 130-135 GR max just to match the underperforming classes…
Instead of aiming highier and actually progress in clearing highier GRs in game you lower the maximum GR we can clear just to match the worse builds…
Just brilliant…
Games are about progressing after dedicatiing houndreds of hours into them, not being stuck for years without any chance of progression or beating the strongest boss or end game content…
If you deny players to advance to the highiest GR out there after years of playing than most players will just quit and play a different game instead…
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No, not really.
I have absolutely not problem with there being builds that are “the strongest” and I understand that there is a need for “the strongest” builds, since there are players who specifically wanna play those kinds of builds.
The issue is that, although here is no problem with “best builds”, that is only true as long the best builds are not significantly stronger than “average” builds. Why? because if you make the strongest builds too strong, you could say that “it takes away the fun away from people”, since now their “average” builds sucks.
And that ironically would make you “The Fun Police”.
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Of course, that is what nerfing does, but you act as if that would be innately a bad thing…
That is what season are for.
It seems like you do not understand a fundamental game mechanic of ARGP’s and many other games. There is a definitive end. Even in Diablo 2. Once you had all the best gear, your character wouldn’t get stronger in any way, since it has reached the top. And that is okay. And once that is done, you start a new season. And that works fine.
What you want to do is just creating the illusion of progress but not actual progress.
That’s not actually how communism works. Let’s keep the discussion focused.
Obviously, in an ideal game environment, what you’re describing sounds great. But–and I keep repeating this–you are not accepting the reality of D3.
The Reality
- Per class, 1 or 2 builds are much stronger than others
- GR 140 is the new bar for solo pushes
- GR 150 is the bar for group pushes
That right there? That’s the game that exists. The one you keep talking about only exists in your head.
You nerf folks to prevent point one, you nerf the class’s potential, period.
Work for buffs for builds and classes you want. Never work for nerfs.
Powercreep is a false dichotomy–there is no either/or. In a game where DPS is based on weapon damage and layered multipliers, a game where the only end-game content is based on scaling difficulty per tier and ranked by time, a game where certain types of damage output are better suited to the aforementioned end-game environment, there is only one direction to go. Powercreep isn’t a problem or a symptom. It’s literally built into the bedrock of the game.
You don’t have to like it, but for the love of Sting, get over it and stop asking for nerfs of any kind.
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I guess it’s more like “will I mind my own business, or will I’ll be a pain in the a of the barb community?”
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The thing is barbs never ask for nerfs to other classes. That is why the buff requests. So nerfing strong classes in the name of balance is off limits for barbs.
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Oh really? I thought D2 LoD ends with killing Baal on Hell or doing uber runs… 
Besides ubers or the event where you sell SoJ to spawn Uber Diablo, the hardest monster to beat was 99 level Baal on hell, yet guess what, you could even SOLO him on ladders and you didn’t have to wait years to do it and how many players can SOLO a 150 GR Guradian in D3 RoS?
If you can’t clear a GR eventually than the whole GR system is pointless…
Leaderboards are there so you can compete against each other in clearing the highiest GRs possible… If you’re limited to just 130-140 GR for solo clears, than most players will get borred and stop playing the game…
Everyone always wants to beat his own personal best record and tries to reach the highiest possible GR in game, so GR150 should be also allowed to be completed even if only by the most dedicated players in game with highiest paragon and best items…
Whether it’s like how it works or not, that doesn’t change the fact that lowering the bar from 140 to 135 GR or lower to match the weakest builds is just beyond ridiculous…
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Read my post again: I didn’t say that nerfing the OP top builds is a buff. It obviously is a nerf and I never called it differently.
You still didn’t address my argument. How can you say that the devs only have a limited amout of resources and that people who play other classes shall ask for buffs (which would mean that at elast a fe dozen builds had to get buffed), when nerfing a few OP buids could do something similar with significantly less effort?!
And how bad that must feel for the 5+ other Barbarin specs that continue to suck…
I understand that, but what I am talking about has nothing to do with specific changes for Barbarians, but it is regarding the philosophy/the idea of “Always Buff, Never Nerf” that a lot of advocate for and that you are trying to defame and badmouth people who desire a more balanced state of the game.
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Yeah, but you do that by actually becoming a better player, not by artificially having the numbers on your items buffed. Having the numbers on items buffed does not make you a better player, it just creates the illusion of you having become better.
But you’re not hearing that from Barbs, are you?
In fact, you’re hearing the opposite. We’re advocating for more buffs to SS and HOTA. We’ll continue to advocate for buffs for our other builds.
We are NOT advocating for a nerf to Rend just to make the other builds feel better. That is NOT the right way to go about things.
See my previous post.
As for defaming people, hardly. Barbs have gotten zip for years, and every time we almost get something, folks crying for nerfs help to get it taken away. We’re sick of it.
Asking for nerfs? We don’t wan you here. It’s that simple.
Not quite.
Rage is one of the best MOTE players out there, but he can’t get to GR 130 by getting better at the build. In fact, most of the builds have an incredibly low skill cap. You climb higher by gathering more main stat, bigger multipliers, and ranking up your legendary gems and Augments. It’s a numbers grind, not a skill grind.
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Yeah I forgot it’s better to fight a boss for 20-40 minutes just to kill it like in Vanilla D3 on the highiest difficulty in the game right…
That’s what defines a great player right?
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Okay, and why shouldn’t these outlier builds not be nerfed? Why?
These are artificial numbers. It also could be GR50, GR80, GR100, GR120 or whatever.
It doesn’t matter if a build is the strongest by being able to clear GR80 or if it is the strongest by being able to clearing GR140. It still is the strongest.
Well, I disagree.
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But anyway, for now I suggest a ceasefire for a few hours, since the Blizzcon stream is going to start in about 10 minutes. I will get back to you all in a few hours.
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Another point is that if this barb buff is nerfed as in 2.6.1 and 115-125 plowing case, then the next time when wiz,dh and others are buffed, barb will still be the underdog.
Historically barbarian class is left at the bottom of the dps chain. Since we know this, we know that barb buffs must overshoot a bit. We know it will be surpassed and be irrelevant within a season.
Unfortunately poor and irresponsible management and development processes put this game in this situation.
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Look this game has had very little added in content and very few balance patches over the years.
You take what you can get…that’s the bottom line.
Barbs were in desperate need of some buffs. Free and Rage gave a buff proposal which included inter class balance. The devs didn’t take that route completely and instead buffed a couple builds and really buffed up WW.
You take what you can get…
Years of requests…you take what you can get.
You can request balance all you like and if Blizz ever does do another balance patch for classes…I recommend you take what you can get 
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Wait a second. Is all this stemming from you trying to prove Free is a hypocrite?
Also, what you think is fun or not fun is highly subjective. How could you prove what level of fun each person is having?
You’re right. It appears one of my teachers were wrong again.
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Because it lowers the entire class’s clear potential and is not fun.
It’s obviously more fun when your build is more powerful–faster in T16, more durable in GRs, etc. It feels better. It makes the game, which is already paper thin, a lot more fun.
No, they’re not. They’re the current numbers based on the game, its limitations, and the state of itemization and Paragon. Claiming they’re articifial is false relativism, the idea that everything is arbitrary and we can set the bar anywhere, and that ignores the ways in which the game progress by challenging you to overcome scaling difficulty on a timer.
No.
There’s no disagreement. You’re wrong. I’ve explained to you in concrete terms why powercreep is a fundamental part of the game. The only alternative is a static level of power that never actually pushes up a GR tier. No one wants that, even folks who think they do.
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So ok. How is this discussion must go?
Lets assume that for balance we nerf classes.
- Shall we nerf Wizards by 19 GRs then
- Nerf demon hunters by 15 GRs
- How about nerfing Necro by 17 GRs
- Then lets buff barb and monk by about 15GRs
- Buff crusader by 5 GRs
- Buff wd by 7 GRs
I wonder how this sounds…
I am sure those defending nerf for balance would be against this by a large margin.
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Slam dunk with a facial…
Wish I could give more likes!!
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