Which is the context in which this whole issue got brought up. People are saying the Horde currently has a numerical superiority based on the Battle of Orgrimmar. I am saying they don’t, based on everything else.
2 Likes
As I said, they lose their connections to death/sea in favor of more void abilities as they make the actual transition.
Or rather that the followers of N’zoth, of which there are many in the quest corrupted Neverset and together, they wiped out the rest.
As good as a commander as Saurfang is supposed to be, there’s nothing suggesting that a successful of invasion into Kalimdor was only possible because of him. That Sylvanas would have never gotten to Northshore far without Saurfang.
We both know that you can’t actually count actual in game models as being indicative. We’ll never actually see how many actual troops or actual ships are involved in a battle with actual numbers due to the limitations of the game engine and animation.
WoW communicates relative numbers, strength, and the overall situation through character dialogue.
[/quote]
The Army of the Black Moon did indeed beat the Horde in Northern Kalimdor.
But they aren’t acting in concert with the Alliance forces, and definitely not the Alliance forces that were all standing outside of Orgrimmar’s gates.
When I speak in the macro, I’m assuming the Army of the Black Moon decide to team back up with the Alliance. But that doesn’t seem to be the case at the moment- or at least wasn’t in the case of the Battle of Orgrimmar.
So yeah, I can see pointing to that instance as the Horde having the advantage. Especially considering that Sylvanas’ forces and rebel forces unite there at the gates of Orgrimmar, while the overall Alliance remained divided between Anduin’s forces who were present, and the Army of the Black Moon, which is doing its own thing in northern Kalimdor.
I think that if they wanted to, the forces Sylvanas had just abandonned, combined with Saurfang’s forces could have put the hurt on the Alliance forces right there. Which pretty much would have left the newly unified Horde having to deal with the Army of the Black Moon.
Maybe, we will never know because it is all speculation. It’s possible the Alliance could have put the hurt on the Horde as well if after Saurfangs death and the gates opened they pulled a surprise attack on the Horde. It’s very easy to speculate in something this fictitious and vague.
The point is the massive advantage people are claiming the Horde had is being overblown from one or two comments in the game, of which we don’t know the exact reasoning for, as I explained multiple times those comments can be read multiple ways.
Sylvanas advantage in that moment can come from the fact she is in an entrenched position, and Anduin already knows what she is willing to do from his experience at Undercity. Sylvanas goals are also different than Anduins, as she merely wants the most death possible for both sides. There’s also again the fact that if they lose that battle N’zoth will arrive shortly opening a two front war. When Alleria speaks of Sylvanas capabilities to beat N’zoth, she never mentions numbers.
We don’t know. All we know is the battle was thought to be a very decisive one for Anduin/Saurfang and that Alleria thought Sylvanas forces were the only ones capable of beating N’zoth. The numbers, the hows, the whys, never mentioned. Therefor it’s a matter of head canon speculating to derive from it that the Horde has came away with numerical superiority. It’s not definitive.
I mean she tasks him with coming up with the plan for the War of Thorns. Isn’t it also Saurfang who discovers the flank through Felwood? We also know the horde began to lose when he wasn’t commanding them, as shown from Nathanos quote. Saurfang was overall pretty important to the Hordes successes in that first act of the war. Sylvanas internal thoughts from A Good War also suggest she believes it will be a big problem if she turns him into an enemy.
2 Likes
Sylvanas herself described it as needing Saurfang to do the planning in A Good War, which weirdly enough was probably part of her very manipulation to get him to do so.
Character dialogue is not very consistent, either, as after the Nazjatar trap Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth says that the entire fleet was lost, but after N’Zoth’s defeat Jaina says the fleet is out searching for Sylvanas, in either they magically recovered or the losses were not that absolute.
That is the core of my point as well, that the forces that were around when Alleria and Anduin made their comments were not actually all of the Alliance’s forces.
I take into consideration that the Night Elf army that was headed down to Silithus was meant to match Saurfang’s entire army, which included the Orcs, Tauren, Goblins, Trolls, Forsaken, and Blood Elves. Saurfang was not hiding the numbers in his army, he was merely hiding his feint, as he was broadcasting his numbers to Shaw’s spies so the Night Elves would send their army that would match theirs down to Silithus.
Saurfang also was analyzing things in A Good War under the premise that neither side had a navy that could move troops around because of the Legion. Anduin’s forces were never a factor Saurfang had to worry about. He only had to worry about the Night Elves’ forces returning before the Horde got to Teldrassil. And when part of the Night Elves’ forces did make it back the Horde almost lost, Saurfang stating that the Horde would need a miracle to win now, but luckily got one in the pass through Felwood.
But it wasn’t even the full Night Elf military that returned in the War of the Thorns. Only the boats that Malfurion’s messenger could reach to tell them to turn back. All the forces that had already been in Feralas did not get involved in the War of the Thorns. And it did not seem that Feralas got attacked at all throughout the Fourth War.
2 Likes
I’d be inclined to agree that the Alliance could have put the hurt on the Horde, had it decided to attack after the Horde decided to lay down arms and open the city to them. Afterall, getting into the city was their military goal.
But yes, of course it’s all speculation. Eve the assertion that the Horde and Alliance is equally matched or that the Alliance/Horde Rebels were likely to win without Saurfang’s gambit, or even the claim that armies are useless against N’zoth, are based in speculation conjecture.
When something doesn’t just outright happen or is stated in the game, all we can do is look to in game dialogue, framing, creator commentary, and precedent to draw conclusions and debate them.
And some speculation can have more evidence supporting it than others.
Not just one or two comments. Several comments, the framing of the whole scene, and the fact that it’s really the simplest answer.
Well I guess it must depend on what advantages she thinks Sylvanas has. Does she think it’s because Sylvanas has the allegiance of more Forsaken than anyone short of the Lich King? Does she think it’s because Sylvanas’ forces have some secret weapon?
I only mention numbers because whatever advantage she did have, she had it before the Horde was reunited. When the Horde and Rebel Horde ended up joining one another, whatever advantage she may have had now benefits from an influx of additional soldiers in the form of the former rebels.
Anduin, Saurfang, and Lothemar all, at one point before the battle, comment on the smaller than hoped for nature of their forces.
Pretty important, I won’t argue. Although Sylvanas’ Horde did also manage to destroy the Alliance fleet and force the Alliance/Rebel Horde through a grinder to the point where they were forced into a last ditch assault against them to decide the fate of the conflict. All this happened after Nathano’s comments.
It helps to have actual quotes, as well as when they were made.
But the Army of the Black Moon had been operating independently of the Alliance army and snubbed the opportunity to join the Alliance forces up until then. How could they counted as part of the Alliance’s forces in any capacity?
So basically, the Night Elf army is enough to take one the entire Horde? The rest of the Alliance supplements them rather than vice versa?
What is the simplest answer? The Hordes numerical advantage? I don’t actually think so, for reasons I explained.
Right, which we aren’t actually told a lot about what that advantage is… just that she has one, in that moment.
Not really, because it was her advantage to begin with, not the Hordes. While the Horde gained the rebel forces, it also lost Sylvanas, Nathanos, a multitude of Banshees, and who knows what else that followed Sylvanas. Do you think those things were not strengths which are now lost?
Right, but this also cost the Horde itself in the form of losing the rest of their fleet as well. The dire situation in that moment also comes from the increasing realization of what Sylvanas is actually doing, that she doesn’t intend to actually win a normal war, but to merely kill as many on both sides as possible, for whatever her true ulterior motives are. So, with this unconventional goal of hers in mind, and with N’zoth on the horizon, it would make sense that our heroes believed they needed to dispose of her right then and there, and end the war, or else all would be lost.
So to sum up here, while the Horde has been reunited with the rebels, it also lost Sylvanas (and things that come with her, such as Nathanos and her Banshees), in the same way Tyrande and her Army of the Black Moon are not currently on the same page as the rest of the Alliance. The moment of advantage for both sides has clearly passed, and the Alliance and Horde have both entered an armistice out of exhaustion and increasing ideological agreement between the leaderships, minus Sylvanas who left the Horde and Tyrande who wont agree til Sylvanas is dead.
2 Likes
[quote]
Numbers don’t really factor into until AFTER part of the forces attacking the Orgrimmar ended up actually joining it. Although Anduin, Saurfang, and Lothermar do comment on their relative lack of numbers and Sylvanas’ domination of the skies- which they apparently can’t challenge. And THEN Alleria brings up the concern that only the Horde forces being led by Sylvanas could stand stand up to N’zoth.
The point being that remained of the Horde was already still deemed formidable before it got an influx of troops in the form of the rebels.
Although yes, it had to give up Sylvanas/Nathanos and her small personal retinue of the most loyal of loyalist in the process…
Unless Sylvanas/Nathanos/Banshees alone were comparable to Saurfang’s rebel forces, then no. I don’t think the loss was as significant as what was gained. Afterall, the bulk of the Forsaken stayed within the Horde. Sylvanas later bemoans this fact.
So it’s really the case that they knew they already had an army capable of defeating N’zoth and Sylvanas’ Horde was just being something they needed to get out of the way before they dealt with the real problem.
Because the actual framing of the events was far more serious and dire than that. And makes all of the hand wringing over their numbers (or lack thereof), Alleria and Saurfang’s whole exchange about the cost/benefits of doing this, and much of any tension leading up to the conflict into much ado about nothing.
I think the Army of the Black Moon is more formidable than Sylvanas/Nathanos and her banshees to the point that the two aren’t comparable. Sylvanas needed the numbers of the Horde to wage an effective campaign on any front. You didn’t see her fighting off forces with just herself, with backup from Nathanos and her banshees.
The Army of the Blackmoon proved it didn’t need the rest of the Alliance to succeed on the Nothern Kalimdor front.
I think in some ways they do, perhaps not in numbers themselves, but in strength… which is again my point. her advantage was not necessarily basic numerical. Sylvanas was shown to be super powerful, slaying Saurfang with relative ease. There is a reason commanders/heroes are high value.
“Your sister will not fight for us, Alleria. When Sylvanas realized the war was on the cusp of ending, she lured both fleets into Azshara’s hands. Not to find victory but to meet death.”
and
“We can not wage two wars. Sylvanas must fall. Here. Now. Before all is lost.”
Anduins words suggest that, yes, the possibility of a two front war and the fact Sylvanas doesn’t even intend to “win”, but to kill, factor into the importance of defeating her then and there.
This is true, but it doesn’t mean she was not an incredibly strong asset to the Horde (had she been loyal to it, rather than her other motives) which is now lost to it.
Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth:
- I can’t believe it. Almost the entire fleet… lost!
Jaina after N’Zoth’s defeat:
- Anduin Wrynn says: Sylvanas is out there somewhere. Until she’s brought to justice, I don’t think Tyrande or Genn will truly consider the war to be over.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: The Kul Tiran fleet is scouring the seas, and Shaw has spies searching every dark corner of Azeroth.
Why would they have to be counted upon to be an actual factor? Jaina stormed off in Legion and was completely out of contact, but then randomly showed up at the Battle for Lordaeron.
Sometimes they are. All depends on whatever the story is that Blizzard wants to tell. As you yourself pointed out:
4 Likes
most nations have more than one fleet like if you told me the USA lost the entire fleet, I’d be like which one? Like I kind of doubt that Jes tereth as command of the fleet jainas brother commands
And as was pointed out earlier - the ‘combined’ alliance forces Anduin commanded arent all the military forces that are part of the Alliance. As mentioned you have the army of the Black Moon, but one thing not really counted on is Ironforge’s army.
Ironforge boasts a pretty formidable force I’d argue, even more so now that all 3 clans are now united. But like usual, the bulk of Ironforge’s forces were kept back defending Khaz’Modan and Arathi. The dwarves arent really known for sending out their full might unless they are in real dire straights. and if you notice, in that last final siege, Ironforge’s full military wasnt present, just a small token force of tanks and riflemen to compliment the human troops.
Ironforge’s military never really got involved in the war besides sending some small groups of soldiers to Arathi and Zandalar but you never really see them in full force. So there is probbaly an entire army made of legions of hale and healthy dwarven soldiers spread across Khaz’Modan
2 Likes
So when Alleria spoke of Sylvanas’ army, she was really referring to Sylvanas personally.
So Sylvanas’ and especially the troops she commanded were more of, at worst, a complication. Something to be dealt with before the real work of fighting N’zoth.
I think this is a major downplaying of the threat the Horde was supposed to represent up until then.
You said “Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth says that the entire fleet was lost” when what she really said was “Almost the entire fleet… lost!”
Yes, Jaina Stormed off in Legion and returned at the battle of Lordaeron. And before she returned in the battle of Lordaeron, she and whatever troops followed her weren’t a part of the Alliance’s forces.
The Army of the Black Moon has likewise been operating independently of the Alliance army and snubbed the opportunity to join the Alliance forces up until then. How could they counted as part of the Alliance’s forces in any capacity?
I’m comparing Sylvanas, Nathanos, and a handful of banshees to an the entire army of the Black Moon. In which case, no, they don’t hold up.
That’s why Sylvanas and crew need the Horde forces.
But apparently you feel that even when they aren’t divided between Sylvanas/Saurfang’s forces, the Horde doesn’t stand a chance against the army of the Black Moon. Or Anduin’s forces. Or the Night Elves in general.
She never actually says why she thinks she may command the only army capable of defeating N’zoth, ever. Our reasoning for why she said that is all speculation. Anduin immediately shoots down the idea anyways, because he has more or less already uncovered Sylvanas game - prolonged killing, not victory.
I mean, the arrival of N’zoth is emphasized as a reasoning for having to defeat Sylvanas there and then. I quoted it. That doesn’t mean Sylvanas is “merely a complication” it means, to me, she is to be seen as much as a problem as N’zoth. Anduin mind you emphasizes her too, not her forces.
You have yet to quote one thing mentioning the numerical superiority that multiple people have claimed the Horde has. It’s all inductive reasoning based on two comments.
1.) Allerias thought that Sylvanas commands the only army capable of beating N’zoth, which is immediately rejected by Anduin, and
2.) Anduins comments that they can only muster enough forces for one siege.
These are the only basis from which people are deriving the Hordes forces are more numerous, even though the context around these statements doesn’t necessarily lead to that conclusion at all.
I don’t, because up until Nazjatar the Alliance had victory within their grasp, stated by Nathanos himself. The threat was Sylvanas, and in fact still is. Thus her being the catalyst for the entire new expansion, not the Horde forces she commanded!
That’s why I’m looking at what evidence we have to suggest why she thinks Sylvanas commands the only army capable of doing so.
And while Anduin does point out that she won’t use the army for that- he doesn’t say she can’t. He says she purposely won’t. At no point are the forces commanded by Sylvanas dismissed as a credible force.
I have actually pointed to other quotes after that, indicating that the forces commanded by Anduin/Saurfang were smaller. That they faced an enemy that was formidable enough to best them. That they weren’t assured of their victory, and realized that failure here would have indeed made it impossible to overcome Sylvanas’ Horde at a later date.
The conversation with Saurfang he explicitly calls out that Anduin could only produce “enough troops for one final assault.” And in the whole conversation, there’s no mention of N’zoth. He becomes a factor later.
Later, due to necessities, they split up their forces, with Genn’s more elite troops move to a flanking position. This supposedly leaving Anduin and his troops exposed and vulnerable in the instance Saurfang and his troops might have decided to turn on the Alliance.
[quote]
“Genn, we need you and your best soldiers to flank the city from the western gate.”
“And leave you here, unguarded? With them?”
“if I wanted to harm him, I’d have done it in the Stockades.”
“No one knows Orgrimmar’s defenses better than Saurfang. We need to trust each other if we are to succeed.”
“Very well. But the Banshee is clever. Dividing our forces might play right into her hands.”
[quote]
Lorthemar also later acknowledges their lack of numbers.
And of course, Sylvanas controls the skies, and Anduin/Saurfang’s forces don’t even try to contest said control.
"Up until Nazjatar…" is a very important qualifier, as the battle of Orgrimmar took place after Nazjatar. You even acknowledge yourself in another thread that the balance of power shifted back and forth repeatedly over the course of the war.
Sylvanas is personally formidable and a cunning manipulator, but she still needed others to get things done. The Horde was able to take multiple zones, burn down Teldrassil, and after several patches worth of fighting across multiple fronts, had reduced the opposition to needing to team up together in order to pull of a last ditch assault with their remaining troops.
N’zoth and his minions, by comparison, only invaded a couple sub-zones, and were ultimately taken out in a single patch by a much smaller force.
I’m not sure I ever stated they weren’t credible. Them being formidable in that location, at that time, does not equate to the Horde being more numerous now.
None of them mentions the size of Sylvanas forces.
Some of those quotes still boil down to :
Which I already explained why that doesn’t necessarily mean Sylvanas forces are more numerous. They only have enough for one siege because if they fail to decapitate Sylvanas leadership then and there it means they have only empowered Sylvanas even more due to her goal being stated as “not victory, but death”, on top of no longer being able to fight N’zoth (“two front war”) when he arrives.
Those lines of dialogue ultimately emphasize that if they lose that battle, they probably lose the war, they emphasize the difficulty of getting into Orgrimmar, and they emphasize the personal power and intellect of Sylvanas Windrunner.
In fact that last part is one that comes up the most:
These are all emphasizing the power and cleverness of Sylvanas personally. The potency of her forces are repeatedly tied back to her.
I would acknowledge it here too. In fact I have repeatedly stated the war ended with the factions once again balanced. That’s why I am arguing the Horde does not have a numbers advantage, and that people who say they do are misrepresenting dialogue from the previous patch. (And if we want to get into what is seen rather than what is told, as some on this board like to do, Amadis makes an excellent point that from the loyalist perspective Orgrimmar was actually not that well defended, with numerous citizens already rebelling)
Sure, she needed to use the Horde to start the war and cause mass death, to both sides, to feed her now known master. Though she obviously didn’t need them under her command to rip a hole into the Shadowlands!
The Horde were on the cusp of losing after all those (3) patches of fighting. It was only Nazjatar which was to even things back out, but, ironically, this is also the patch where practically every single other leader of the Horde turns on Sylvanas, alienating her to Orgrimmar.
Discounting the War of Thorns, we have 1 patch in BfA of the Horde not even really winning, just reducing the naval capabilities of the Alliance while inciting rebellion in Sylvanas’ own ranks.
Ironforge by all accounts is a sleeping giant that’s only hindered by Blizzard’s obsession with Stormwind and its humans. It was the cornerstone of the pre-Varian Alliance. Hell, it was THE place for alliance players until Blizzard started forcing people to gather at Stormwind.
2 Likes
Alleria and Anduin wouldn’t count them. Just as they wouldn’t count Jaina before. And as Jaina showed back up, not count something isn’t a point towards anything.
Against the army of all the Horde races that Saurfang formed for the War of the Thorns, the Night Elves were meant to counter them. At Orgrimmar the Horde rebels and Anduin’s forces together had to face any forces still loyal to Sylvanas, though notably all three of these groups had been whittled down by the Fourth War. Even more so, both the Horde rebels and Sylvanas’ forces, as they were once one, had also taken heavy losses during War of the Thorns, while the Night Elf army hadn’t been present and didn’t take many professional soldier losses, as the Night Elf casualties were nearly entirely civilians. So, yes, out of everyone, the Night Elves, as far as military strength, actually likely are the ones most well off right now.