Well none of the armies present at the assault on Orgrimmar were ever arrayed against N’zoth’s forces, so it remains a hypothetical. None of them were ever really even pitted against one another, so that too remains a hypothetical.
And when you’re dealing with hypotheticals, all you can do is look at evidence in the form of testimony/analysis, figures, and other things. None of which provide a definite answer, but are nonetheless useless in helping draw conclusions.
He pretty much does. He and others state and reinforce the idea that if they don’t take Sylvanas down then and there, then they really start to think they can’t win. There aren’t other forces to take her down with.
As the Army of the Black Moon aren’t part of Anduin’s forces.
Because a single player champion tagging along with Magni for some reason can do what no other force regardless of size can do? Even in the final raid, even all your raid friends weren’t as important as you, the champion.
And never actually supported. Which goes back to what I originally said, that you are hinging your entire premise on the speculation of an in-game character who could be wrong.
Your own assessments rather remove the weight of your point. Even if they killed a lot of the Alliance forces, but the Alliance still could have won any way, the numerical superiority is not the end all be all point that people hinge on. Because that is their point. That they believe that the Horde would have won if they fighting continued. And yet the Alliance’s fight would also not have been futile or an inevitable defeat, either.
Well that’s kind of the case in all of WoW. I suppose it shouldn’t be that armies are useless against N’zoth. They’re useless in general sense, as the majority of the game’s story beats are only ever carried out by only a handful of characters.
But not just any character. An idea expressed by an experienced military commander who was going up against her, and not challenged by the other experinced military commanders- even as they questioned her other assertions. And an idea supported by their actions as well.
And you based all this on equally unfounded speculation and the speculation of another in-game character who has been wrong and whose assertion also remains hypothetical and was never actually put to the test by in game events.
Just because one thinks the Horde would have won (all things equal) due to superior numbers/forces, it doesn’t leave out the possibility of defeat by some other means, or suggest that said victory would just have been a complete and utter steamroll.
You should get to this quest when you can to see how well armed forces would fare against N’Zoth:
That the other leaders did not challenge Alleria’s assertions of the strength of Sylvanas’ forces while they were already dismissing the very premise of her suggestion does not mean Alleria’s assertion was accurate or correct. That no one questioned her is not evidence that she was right.
And once again, being a military leader does not make one an infallible analyst, as every military leader throughout BfA has made incorrect assertions. That’s been almost the entire driving force of the expansion’s storyline from start to finish.
Interesting as it it, it’s still more or less a one off event, and only two people were under its effects, and says nothing of all the other forces that didn’t succumb to this.
Although- and this was probably unintentional and not what Alleria was referring to- but seeing as the Horde possesses a larger than average number of Undead, and they’re resistant to such effects, they would have been at an advantage here.
Again, the part that specifically called out was the “Sylvanas will fight for us,” part. And yeah, there’s plenty of miscalculations in BfA, and they’re generally called out as miscalculations.
But I don’t think the idea that Sylvanas had such an advantage that she had to be stopped there and that if she wasn’t, the situation was going to go from bad to near hopeless, was presented as such miscalculation. For it to be a miscalculation would mean that everyone could have just defeated her at any point, and just didn’t, and that this battle wasn’t supposed to matter at all, which is not at all how it was framed and written.
This is also a misunderstanding, specifically of N’Zoth’s forces, who do have influence on the undead:
It was actually Alleria that presented why Sylvanas had to be taken then: Because N’Zoth was on the rise, their forces could not risk Sylvanas attacking them while they would be facing N’Zoth.
Sylvanas herself hadn’t been a threat since the Battle of Dazar’alor. While she did lead the Alliance’s navy into the Nazjatar trap, all that did was reset both sides to being unable to move troops to the opposite continent very easily, which was the very limitation they had been facing since A Good War that both sides had been trying to overcome ever since, and were now both set completely back. Beyond the trap, Sylvanas didn’t actually do anything to anyone in all that time. She just sat in Orgrimmar, baited people to come save Baine, which they did without any harm to the people who infiltrated. Despite the fear that she would come after Thunderbluff, Sylvanas just didn’t do anything, or show that she could do anything other than hole up in Orgrimmar. Sylvanas wasn’t actually the threat herself at that point. She was a risk of a distraction during the true threat of N’Zoth.
Wrathion thought he was stronger against N’zoth’s minions than he was and thought Garrosh was the key to defending Azeroth from the Legion two separate times.
I’d take whatever judgement call he makes with a bit more than just a grain of salt.
We are told, by basically one character, that it may be the case, not that it is, and we are not actually told why. So why would that be the case? Sylvanas forces certainly were not winning the war at the time against the Alliance, we know that. So why did Alleria say her army may be capable of defeating N’zoth? Someone awhile back pointed out something that hadn’t occurred to me before, which is that Alleria possibly meant the Forsaken. The Forsaken are said to be possibly immune to the whispers of Old Gods, which would explain why she felt Sylvanas possibly commanded the only army capable of defeating him, specifically.
(and after all that, it’s not Sylvanas army that defeats N’zoth anyways. It’s largely the PC.)
Light in the Darkness were poerformed by Tidesages. Tidesages on N’zoth’s side, but Tidesages nontheless. Dealing with the souls in the dead would be within their wheelhouse even before mucking with Old Gods. As are their water abilities.
The Nine Lives Quest doesn’t even contain any Undead. It’s just some random Neferset citizens that got corrupted.
Torment from Beyond is an actual example of N’zoth’s void powers just straight up going after the souls of the dead.
Alleria wasn’t the only one who was adamant that Sylvanas needed to be taken down then and there or else it’d be too late.
Saurfang said it.
Anduin said it.
And I don’t understand how Sylvanas isn’t a threat- except when she is. The events of BfA take place over a year or two. In the time since then, she and those following her her orders have invaded Northern Kalimdor, burned down Teldrassil, blighted Undercity, launched a war on multiple fronts across Azeroth, assaulted Kul Tiras, destroyed both fleets, and left the Alliance in a position where they were very close to recruiting farmers just to fill the ranks of their army. And she wasn’t really stopping.
She spends her time in the expansion hopping between Orgrimmar and Drazar’alor, and happened to be back in Orgrimmar because she learned of Baine’s escape from Orgrimmar’s dungeons and an impending assault on the city.
Where? We don’t learn the Army of the Blackmoon (operating independently of the Alliance) is trounced Horde forces in Northern Kalimdor until afterwards. We don’t learn that Alliance forces took Arathi until after the ceasefire.
Heck, one of the major criticisms up until then had been that the Alliance hasn’t had any victories and Sylvanas just kept winning- especially when you take into account her grand scheme was to artificially extend the conflict going as long as possible in order to generate as much death as possible, something she was kind of succeeding at and would have continued to succeed at had everyone just decided to let her stay in orgrimmar completely unmolested.
But if the anti-Sylvanas forces had this war in the bag and Sylvanas was already as good as done, and her forces not a threat, why the big deal about defeating her right here and right now? Why would anyone ever possibly come to the conclusion that her forces were of impressive strength in any context when they clearly pale in comparison?
Tidesages that turned into K’thir, who are among N’Zoth’s forces in the assaults.
Those Neferset citizens were all dead, as the quest giver points out. You can either destroy their corpses, or kill the reanimated ones walking around, which horrifies the quest giver when you turn the daily in.
What power was Saurfang talk about? Did he know about Sylvanas’ death powers before he challenged her? Because as far as her military power went, it was growing weaker and weaker each day, not stronger. Of the eleven racial leaders that had once supported Sylvanas, now the leaders of the Orcs, Darkspear, Thunder Bluff Tauren, Blood Elves, Houjin Pandaren, Nightborne, and Highmountain Tauren had all turned against her, leaving her only with the leaders of the Bilgewater (who was getting ready to abandon her) and Mag’har still supporting her, as Sylvanas herself had the Zandalari’s remaining fleet sacrificed, to the point where the Zandalari didn’t even show up to Orgrimmar at all to support one side or another.
This was my reference, yes, that the more important war, the one against N’Zoth, would be put in more danger if Sylvanas attacked again during it.
The War of the Thorns was by Saurfang’s leadership, not Sylvanas’. She didn’t have him any more after Lordaeron. She blighted the Undercity, yes, because she knew she couldn’t hold onto it - or, given the events of Before the Storm, didn’t want to hold onto it any more if the Forsaken were clinging to it more than they were clinging to her. All of her assaults on Kul’Tiras didn’t amount to anything, as if often the complaint against the Horde player’s War Campaign experience. She destroyed both fleets thanks to Azshara, not by any power of her own, and, like Saurfang, didn’t have Azshara’s support any more after that.
Her most successful orders she put out was to hold Arathi so that the Alliance and Horde would meat grinder their numbers down fighting over it, hence the farmers. But even there Sylvanas still ultimate lost.
Because Sylvanas was never actually trying to win. As Anduin and Saurfang themselves covered:
Anduin Wrynn says: When Sylvanas realized the war was on the cusp of ending, she lured both fleets into Azshara’s hands. Not to find victory, but to meet death.
Varok Saurfang says: “In the end, death claims us all.” Eitrigg told me those were among the last words Sylvanas spoke to Vol’jin.
While these were announced at Blizzcon, there’s been no indication of when these victories happened. They could have been as early as the end of patch 8.1.5.
That is a good question. But the simplest answer doesn’t come from within the setting itself, but the writing of the scene. It was meant to make the situation more dramatic, because when you think about the situation enough, it was questionable that she had any significant amount of forces left at all.
After the Battle of Dazar’alor Nathanos states the Horde is losing (this is before any significant rebellion!), then you have Nazjatar, which devastated both sides. That’s what I meant when I said Sylvanas Horde forces were not winning.
I never said they had the war in the bag nor did I ever deny that there were statements which emphasized both the strength of Sylvanas and the importance of defeating her in Orgrimmar. Though I would say that part of the reason why Anduin stressed the importance of beating her then and there was because he knew N’zoth was coming, and the Alliance would be doomed if they were attacked by both Sylvanas and N’zoth, and wasn’t necessarily due to Sylvanas having numerical strength by herself.
Again what I contest is the notion that the events of the makgora implying the Hordes numerical superiority. It doesn’t, due to all the reasons I went over. I think the correct conclusion to be drawn from the end of the war is that neither side currently has an advantage or superiority and have fought each other to exhaustion, on top of the leadership coming to ideological agreement that war is fruitless and Sylvanas had pitted them against each other to begin with.
And at the time of this quest, they’re still Tidesages, which curiously enough tend to lose many of their death/water/storm themed abilities in favor of general void ones as they make the actual transformation into K’thir even as they gain tentacle.
You only encounter two kinds of Neferset. There’s the Voidwarped Neferset, which are not undead. They’re humanoid. And then there’s Neferset Denizens who are laying around with the corpse tag, but are never reanimated at any point during the quest. There’s no NPCs doing the reanimating. At no point is it ever mentioned the people were slain and reanimated.
Sylvanas orchestrated this whole war. Saurfang and other Horde leaders were definitely complicit, but Sylvanas was fighting in northern Kalimdor and giving orders right alongside Saurfang. TO Saurfang in some instances. She is the one who ordered the burning of Teldrassil for instance, not him.
And even when Saurfang left, the Orcs as a whole didn’t abandon Sylvanas’ forces. The Darkspear as a whole didn’t abandon it, even though Zekhan and some of his allies did. The Blood Elves as a whole didn’t abandon it, even though Lothemar and some of his allies did. So on and so forth. She still possessed significant forces. Forsaken were definitely her powerbase, but Sylvanas’ Horde was still pretty varied. The only major bloc Sylvanas lost seems to have been the Tauren/Highmountain after she imprisoned Baine.
Sylvanas did seemingly have the capacity to keep this conflict going. On and on and on. She and her troops weren’t complaining about the dire straights of their situation and Sylvanas fact was continuing to kill off their own as late as Nazjhatar. The Alliance and Saurfang’s rebel faction, on the other hand, were stating that they were reaching the end of their rope to the point where they feel that unless they stop her now, their future is sealed.
One can’t hold Sylvanas and the armies under her up as a threat that must be stopped now, or else all is lost, and simultaneously try to argue that she’s just a failure who never succeeds at anything and isn’t actually a threat to anyone.
I men we could say that absolutely nobody in the narrative has any conception of their situation, which is all funny and cynical in a dismissive “Ha ha, Blizzard can’t write” sort of way, but I think this marks an outright refusal to engage the material. That no matter what the characters may feel, think, say, or do, say, or act in regards to the world around them, they’re wrong.
If we have no evidence indicating when they happen why’re you using them as examples of Sylvanas’ failures prior to her abandoning the Horde? You keep citing ambiguous things as evidence, and when that ambiguity allows more than one interpretation, suddenly that thing becomes unreliable.
Keeping in mind that this conclusion was drawn before the rebel factions are reintegrated into the greater Horde. The idea that instead of fighting one another, that the Horde would instead be reunited doesn’t seem to have been the plan going forward.
“My queen, reports are coming in from all outposts. The Alliance is tightening its grip. Victory is within their grasp.”
Hmm? Not sure I am following you here honestly.
To put it simply, all I am saying is the notion that the Horde currently has numerical/military superiority over the Alliance is wrong and that the things people are using as evidence for that claim don’t really hold up.
The way I view the situation, taking everything into account, is that neither side has much of an advantage and that both sides have agreed on the fruitlessness of the war, thus the armistice.
They actually transform into K’thir during the quest. And were using void attacks such as Abyssal Bolt even before they transformed, and were raving about the Old God:
Tidesage Seacaller says: Ah… I hear the voice! The thousand truths!
Tidesage Seacaller says: I am blind no longer.
Tidesage Seacaller says: I drink in the infinite void.
Tidesage Seacaller says: I hear the voice! The thousand truths!
Tidesage Seacaller says: I will live eternal in the abyss.
Tidesage Seacaller says: My soul for the ancient one!
Tidesage Seacaller says: Oh… The writhing shadow comes for me!
Tidesage Seacaller says: The circle… I see the circle!
Tidesage Seacaller says: The drowned dream consumes me!
Tidesage Seacaller says: The tendrils of fate shall claim you!
Tidesage Seacaller says: The writhing shadow comes for me!
Tidesage Seacaller says: Yes… The circle… I see the circle!
It is implied at best, as you are right that it is never actually shown:
Neferset have been spotted wandering the streets of their city to the south. This would normally be no cause for alarm, except the Neferset were completely wiped out. I must ask you to investigate further… and if by some foul magic these reports turn out to be true, you must do whatever you can to contain this threat!
I cannot believe what I am hearing…
This is truly much worse than I feared.
The implication from the copses and the Voidwarped is that they were reanimated by the void, despite the humanoid tag.
If Saurfang hadn’t gotten her there she wouldn’t even have had the opportunity to say the couple of words she did.
While you are pointing out the state of things from Lordaeron to Nazjatar these are not the same situations as when the Horde rebels came to face Sylvanas at Orgrimmar, as while we see the Horde rebel and Alliance forces outside of Orgrimmar, the Sylvanas loyalist player does not see an equivalent or greater inside of Orgrimmar, and in actuality sees that there is much unrest and people opposed to Sylvanas inside the city still, which the honor Horde and Alliance players did not get to see.
What did the Horde get out of its player’s War Campaign?
Marshal M. Valentine? Sacrificed by Nathanos.
Thomas Zelling? Executed in front of all of the Horde’s leaders.
Abyssal Scepter? Stolen back by the Alliance, used against the Horde, then destroyed by Talanji.
The Zandalari fleet? Blown up by the Alliance.
Derek Proudmoore? Saved by Baine.
Priscilla Ashvane? Immediately betrayed them.
As for Darkshore itself, most things indicate that the Night Elf victory happened after the first round of the Alliance version of the warfront proper itself. Nathanos is no longer at Darkshore (having headed back to Zandalar before the Battle of Dazar’alor, and then we see him for Nazjatar before he goes back to Orgrimmar, and he doesn’t show up in the Alliance version of the Darkshore Warfront, either). The Horde’s version of the warfront is set right after the Alliance intro questing since the Horde has to save Belmont, and since that’s always the case and generals don’t change like at Arathi it would seem this is a gameplay mechanic like repeating dungeons rather than battlegrounds (Belmont also doesn’t show up in the Alliance version of the Darkshore Warfront, so it’s not like the Alliance players recapture him every time, either).
And even outside the Darkshore Warfront we have support that the Alliance won:
But there is something earlier you pointed out that I would like to note as well:
Sylvanas winning at causing as much death as possible is not winning for the Horde, nor is it any indication of the Horde’s strength. Quite the opposite, the more Sylvanas was winning, the weaker the Horde was getting as well, as she killed them off right alongside the Alliance.
This is actually a great observation, especially if we are going by the whole “you can’t trust what characters say, only what you see” line of thinking that some people were advocating awhile back.
This was right after the Alliance took out the Zandalari fleets and before Azshara/Sylvanas took out the Alliance fleets. So yeah, the Horde was definitely in a bad way at the time.
I’m saying that Sylvanas’ forces were powerful enough that in order to take her down, the Alliance forces and rebel elements of the Horde teamed up to do it, and were framed as the underdogs. They’re dismayed at her numbers. They emphasize again and again the critical importance of this assault. One of them voices concerns that she may have the only army powerful enough to fight the bigger fight to come. In the end, one of the characters essentially chooses suicide as part of a bid to avoid the bloodshed that would result from an actual confrontation.
But Sylvanas’s forces were actually the one at the disadvantage. Even if they’d reunited with the Horde rebels.
In the macro, no, the Horde and Alliance in their entirety don’t have a big advantage over one another. But at the time of the Battle of Orgrimmar, we weren’t looking at the entirety of the Horde and Alliance forces on the battlefield.
