Zoram'gar Outpost Abandoned

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

At no point are the forces commanded by Sylvanas dismissed as a credible force.

I’m not sure I ever stated they weren’t credible. Them being formidable in that location, at that time, does not equate to the Horde being more numerous now.

I’d say the Horde no longer being divided between Rebel and Loyalist factions, while the Alliance was at the time (and still possibly) divided between those just strong enough to make one final assault on Orgrimmar and the Army of the Blackmoon makes it sensible to conclude so.

I have actually pointed to other quotes after that, indicating that the forces commanded by Anduin/Saurfang were smaller.

None of them mentions the size of Sylvanas forces.

Some of those quotes still boil down to :

2.) Anduins comments that they can only muster enough forces for one siege.

Which I already explained why that doesn’t necessarily mean Sylvanas forces are more numerous. They only have enough for one siege because if they fail to decapitate Sylvanas leadership then and there it means they have only empowered Sylvanas even more due to her goal being stated as “not victory, but death”, on top of no longer being able to fight N’zoth (“two front war”) when he arrives.

Those lines of dialogue ultimately emphasize that if they lose that battle, they probably lose the war, they emphasize the difficulty of getting into Orgrimmar, and they emphasize the personal power and intellect of Sylvanas Windrunner
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N’zoth isn’t even discussed in this dialogue. In fact, he doesn’t come up as a concern until Alleria brings him up.

And I disagree that they’re referring to Sylvana’s personal abilities (which have largely not been displayed at all) for the following reasons…

Sylvanas’ actions have threatened us all. Day by day, her power grows

Sylvanas is one person. She alone did not take nothern Kalimdor and burn Teldrassil. She alone didn’t garrison troops anywhere and fight with the Alliance for any length of time. She alone is not holding Orgrimmar.

the Banshee is clever

there is no telling what treachery Sylvanas has in store for us.”

These are all emphasizing the power and cleverness of Sylvanas personally. The potency of her forces are repeatedly tied back to her.

The threat she poses is also tried to the fact that their numbers are not as numerous as they want them to be and being pulled thin.

Sylvanas doesn’t seem to just have one singular advantage in the form of competent leadership.

You even acknowledge yourself in another thread that the balance of power shifted back and forth repeatedly over the course of the war.

I would acknowledge it here too. In fact I have repeatedly stated the war ended with the factions once again balanced. That’s why I am arguing the Horde does not have a numbers advantage, and that people who say they do are misrepresenting dialogue from the previous patch. (And if we want to get into what is seen rather than what is told, as some on this board like to do, Amadis makes an excellent point that from the loyalist perspective Orgrimmar was actually not that well defended, with numerous citizens already rebelling)
[/quote]

That would be where I could point out character dialogue where they’re confident in their position and have already carried out operations that effectively cut the assault forces in half, and the citizens weren’t rebelling -the city was under martial law at the time and the streets relatively deserted, but would those also be dismissed as the characters just plain being wrong/lying.

and after several patches worth of fighting across multiple fronts, had reduced the opposition to needing to team up together in order to pull of a last ditch assault with their remaining troops.

The Horde were on the cusp of losing after all those (3) patches of fighting. It was only Nazjatar which was to even things back out, but, ironically, this is also the patch where practically every single other leader of the Horde turns on Sylvanas, alienating her to Orgrimmar.

Discounting the War of Thorns, we have 1 patch in BfA of the Horde not even really winning, just reducing the naval capabilities of the Alliance while inciting rebellion in Sylvanas’ own ranks.

How is it really a case of the war swinging back and forth if the Horde is on the cusp of losing the whole time?

And while yes, eventually half of the leaders turn against her, the majority of citizens and military forces unfortunately did not. When Saurfang left, he didn’t take all the orcs with him. Same with Lothemar and the Blood Elves. Baine and Mayla seem to have the general support of the Tauren tribes, though.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

[quote=“Amadis-draka, post:121, topic:481223, full:true”]

Yes, Jaina Stormed off in Legion and returned at the battle of Lordaeron. And before she returned in the battle of Lordaeron, she and whatever troops followed her weren’t a part of the Alliance’s forces.

The Army of the Black Moon has likewise been operating independently of the Alliance army and snubbed the opportunity to join the Alliance forces up until then. How could they counted as part of the Alliance’s forces in any capacity?

Alleria and Anduin wouldn’t count them. Just as they wouldn’t count Jaina before. And as Jaina showed back up, not count something isn’t a point towards anything.

Not someone and the troops they command is a point when you’re comparing the size and relative powers of forces.

But apparently you feel that even when they aren’t divided between Sylvanas/Saurfang’s forces, the Horde doesn’t stand a chance against the army of the Black Moon. Or Anduin’s forces. Or the Night Elves in general.

Against the army of all the Horde races that Saurfang formed for the War of the Thorns, the Night Elves were meant to counter them. At Orgrimmar the Horde rebels and Anduin’s forces together had to face any forces still loyal to Sylvanas, though notably all three of these groups had been whittled down by the Fourth War. Even more so, both the Horde rebels and Sylvanas’ forces, as they were once one, had also taken heavy losses during War of the Thorns, while the Night Elf army hadn’t been present and didn’t take many professional soldier losses, as the Night Elf casualties were nearly entirely civilians. So, yes, out of everyone, the Night Elves, as far as military strength, actually likely are the ones most well off right now.

When the Horde Army rolled into Northern Kalimdor, the Night Elves, despite fighting very hard, were eventually overwhelmed. It was only after the Horde pretty much spread itself over multiple fronts and with the power up of the Black Moon that they started to expel the predominantly Forsaken occupation forces from Kalimdor.

Also, the Night Elf forces and the Army of the Blackmoon are not one and the same, especially around the time of the Battle of Orgrimmar.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Not someone and the troops they command is a point when you’re comparing the size and relative powers of forces.

Which is my point, that Alleria and Anduin weren’t actually factoring the forces that weren’t there.

When the Horde Army rolled into Northern Kalimdor, the Night Elves, despite fighting very hard, were eventually overwhelmed.

You do know that Saurfang’s entire plan was to divert the Night Elf military far away to Silithus and wait for Tyrande to be gone and hoped that neither would be able to return so the Horde would have a chance, and even then against Malfurion and the civilians the Horde still needed eight to one odds to overwhelm said Night Elves that were still around - and the Horde almost still lost even then - right?

Also, the Night Elf forces and the Army of the Blackmoon are not one and the same, especially around the time of the Battle of Orgrimmar.

This is often my point as well. The Night Elf forces that showed up at Orgrimmar were not using the Night Elf Warrior models, and so were not part of the Army of the Black Moon.

[anon95961490]

N’zoth isn’t even discussed in this dialogue

Not in the dialogue you mentioned, but he is brought up in the context of the scenario taking place, which is important because again Sylvanas numbers never are. Anduins numbers are (in relation to his objective), N’zoth is brought up, Orgrimmars defense structure is brought up, Sylvanas personal strength and treachery is brought up; the numbers under her command aren’t, which is why I think the conclusion you and others have reached is false.

The threat she poses is also tried to the fact that their numbers are not as numerous as they want them to be and being pulled thin.

But why is that the case? It’s because Sylvanas doesn’t aim to find victory, but to force every one to find death. Numbers are more important to Anduin/Saurfangs side because numbers actually matter for their objectives at this point, and the time in which they have to capture them, whereas to Sylvanas they don’t. She only needs enough to keep the war going, because that’s all she wants.

And again, she didn’t need the Horde to storm Icecrown and rip a hole into the Shadowlands!

How is it really a case of the war swinging back and forth if the Horde is on the cusp of losing the whole time?

War of Thorns was a significant first act of the war as a whole. The next act was the war turning in favor of the Alliance. The third and final act did not have a winning side, because it was no longer a pure faction vs faction conflict, and ultimately the war ended in a truce. I explained that in the other thread.

Swinging back in forth means:
Horde winning --> Alliance winning --> Sides Evened Out --> Truce.

And while yes, eventually half of the leaders turn against her, the majority of citizens and military forces unfortunately did not. When Saurfang left, he didn’t take all the orcs with him. Same with Lothemar and the Blood Elves. Baine and Mayla seem to have the general support of the Tauren tribes, though.

Leaders are pretty important. Sylvanas only had Orgrimmar left. It’s not Silvermoon needing to be besieged. If you are going to induce from weak premises that the Horde has a numbers advantage, then I’m not sure why you can’t induce every single leader of the Horde turning on Sylvanas means she was the one outnumbered heavily at this point.