I’m saying Alleria can also have miscalculated the strength of the forces behind Orgrimmar’s walls the same as she could miscalculate anything else Alleria might have speculated on. There’s nothing to actually backup Alleria’s statement.
3 Likes
Her being wrong about assessing the capabilities Old Gods could mean she doesn’t know anything about assessing the capabilities of enemy military forces. Or it could mean she doesn’t know much about handling Old Gods.
But by that logic, every character can be wrong about everything, because very rarely are a characters’ statements immediately followed up by explicit confirmation/contradiction. Heck, even Wrathion’s claims that armies are useless could also be wrong, as we never actually see the Horde/Alliance ever conducting any military operations against the forces of N’zoth to see whether or not they’d fail.
But it’s not like Alleria is the only one who thought the Alliances forces were on their last legs compared to Sylvanas’. That Sylvanas was in a militarily advantageous position and that even with forces bolstered by Saurfang’s rebels, that this assault on Orgrimmar was their final gambit to win the war.
1 Like
That is my point, yes. The characters are characters, but treated like people, they can be wrong about things the same as any of us posting here can be. Blizzard has gone out of its way to point out as such, that characters within the setting can be wrong about the setting.
Both Alleria and Anduin made these assessments without Tyrande and the Army of the Black Moon to aid them. And both made their assessments without even knowing what was going on inside the gates, let alone what forces Sylvanas even had.
3 Likes
Of course they can be wrong, but we have to take things into context.
Just because Alleria doesn’t know (or so Wrathion claims) how to fight the forces of N’zoth, it doesn’t immediately call into question every single statement she’s ever made.
As someone with decades/centuries as a military leader and after having just consulted with a number of other military leaders, her military assessments have weight that others do not.
Just as we trust Wrathion’s statements about the effectiveness (or lack) of military forces against the forces of the Old Gods because that’s in his wheelhouse- even though he’s been wrong before. About a great many things.
They put together this plan alongside Saurfang, Baine, Lor’themar and Horde rebels- many of of whom did have an idea of what kind of forces Sylvanas still had. All while well aware that the Army of the Black Moon still existed.
And these are a really a lot of rationalizations -none of which are really backed up in game either- to try and explain why Alleria suggesting Sylvanas’ army is the most powerful in Azeroth is wrong.
1 Like
Hence my pointing out that there’s nothing that actually backs up what Alleria said.
Military experience, not even in decades or centuries, is an assurance of anything, either. Tyrande conferred with the Alliance’s military leaders on what to do about Silithus, and they were all played by Saurfang’s feint all the same.
It is surprising that we trust Wrathion after his bumbling against the Legion. We indeed got lucky this time.
All of which - Saurfang, Baine, and Lor’themar - were placing their bets on this last attempt being successful against Sylvanas’ forces, so I would not say that they were in agreement with Alleria’s assessment.
Saurfang specifically spoke out against Alleria’s idea that Sylvanas would fight against N’Zoth at all, agreeing with Anduin that they had to defeat Sylvanas first.
2 Likes
This whole tangent started when you cited Wrathion’s contradiction of Alleria when it came to dealing with N’zoth order to try and discredit her assessment of Sylvanas’ strength.
But now we can’t cite a character’s in game dialogue as evidence of what’s going on the world?
Saurfang didn’t argue against the idea that Sylvanas’ forces were superior. He just added the fact that Sylvanas would never fight for them (the Alliance/Horde Rebels/Azeroth), because all she cares about is more death.
1 Like
Wrathion turned out right, and Alleria’s assessment was poorly founded to begin with. What supports Wrathion is he got lucky with his bet on Magni and the player. Alleria doesn’t actually have anything to support her statements.
I didn’t say he did. I said Saurfang placed his bets on them defeating her even with their forces as they were. And then he didn’t want anyone to die, so he changed his bet to taunting Sylvanas.
Which is what makes Alleria’s premise that they should just let Sylvanas fight N’Zoth unfounded to begin with. Likewise, once again, there’s nothing that actually supports Alleria’s assessment of the forces within Orgrimmar, especially when the Horde rebels you listed came to believe that they could win this.
3 Likes
Neither the Horde or Alliance actually attempted to field armies against N’zoth, though. All we have to go on when it comes to the idea that armies are useless are Wrathion’s words. And as mentioned before, he’s been wrong when it comes to foreseeing what will/won’t be needed to take down global threats.
Actually, considering one of the first things we do is enlist the aid of the Tol’vir, Wastelanders, Pandaren, and Mogu in the fight against N’zoth’s forces, it could be argued that he was wrong.
You’re suggesting he contradicted Alleria’s observation that Sylvanas’ forces were stronger or didn’t agree.
Outside of Saurfang’s ploy, pretty much everyone saw the attack against Orgrimmar as a last ditch effort whose chances of success were marginal at best. If this assault failed, they were done for. Nobody even questioned the suggestion that she might even be able to take on N’zoth if she wanted. That suggests, in game, that her forces were indeed more formidable than what the Alliance/Horde rebels fielded.
Saurfang explicitly tells Alleria why he thinks her decision to lay down and let Sylvanas fight N’zoth is unfounded. And it’s not because he doesn’t think Sylvanas has the strength. It’s not because he thinks armies are useless against the forces of N’zoth.
It’s because Sylvanas won’t actually use it to their (The Alliance’s/Horde Rebels’/Azeroth’s) benefit.
Thats a big assumption for all we know they where the only ones cause they where undead, and nothing to do with numbers
3 Likes
Did you do the quest where you’re flying around with a Wastewanderer and N’Zoth’s forces trick you into bombing the other Wastewanderers?
That’s not really the mentality of the rebels or Anduin. They did not calculate things as a marginal chance of success. They treated it as it being the only conclusion. “Sylvanas must fall. Here. Now. Before all is lost.” And the Alliance and Horde rebels likewise still expected to face N’Zoth after this fight at Orgrimmar. That even after the fighting and losses, they still would take the war to N’Zoth. This does not match Alleria’s idea that only Sylvanas’ forces could win.
3 Likes
I actually haven’t. Not that this seems to keep them and the Tol’vir, Pandaren, and Mogu from being useful allies against any of N’zoth’s forces.
They have no other choice. It’s either confront Sylvanas before she becomes even stronger and hope they have the strength after to face N’zoth, or be destroyed. Even if they don’t fight and let Sylvanas defeats N’zoth, they still lose, because she won’t fight to protect them from N’zoth while continuing to wage war. There are no other options.
People who talk in terms of "X must fall. Here. Now. Before all is lost.” are coming from a position of perceived weakness and desperation. Nobody talks like that when they believe they have the advantage and their chances are good. Nobody talks like that when they have other, superior options that they are confident will work.
Wrathion was right we literally just finished that story alliera was completely wrong like we already know who was right and who was wrong
She hasnt fought at all with the current alliance, back when she was in the alliance, she didnt even know who night elves are or worgen or draenei, in her pov that was like 1000 years ago too.
We dont have to trust them, bfa ended dude, we literally saw wrathion be right.
well that explains alot, it isnt 8.2.5 anymore hon, its 8.3 and wrathion was right, it doesnt matter how dumb or how mean he was in the past the 8.3 storyline proved him right and alliera completely wrong
Alleria was ‘wrong’ in the sense that the Alliance/Rebel Horde forces never actually had to assault Orgrimmar and as such, we never actually got to see if who’d have won the fight.
I mean obviously, being the good guys, the forces of Anduin, Saurfang, et al weren’t going to actually lose, but as we saw, the reason ended up being and unforeseen turn of events in the form of Saurfang’s sacrifice. That allowed them to play up the narrative tension of the good guys having their backs against the wall with the odds against them, but still allow them to pull through anyway without being a forgone conclusion due to having the obvious superior military force.
To be fair, the Tol’vir, Pandaren, and Mogu don’t actually do anything to stop N’Zoth. They’re just kind of there defending themselves and… that’s about it.
Indeed. But no one actually comes to a fight that they have to win expecting to lose, either. The Horde rebels didn’t show up to be martyrs, even if that is what Saurfang pulled off personally.
2 Likes
They were able to hold off N’zoth’s forces, through armed force. They were basically armies, but smaller and weaker than what the Horde/Alliance could have fielded.
Acknowledging the enemy you’re coming up against is superior and your chances are low and you have no other options is not the same as expecting to lose.
I’m not saying that Alleria and others thought fighting against Sylvanas was pointless. Merely that she acknowledged that Sylvanas did a significant military advantage to the point where she briefly considered just standing aside and not fighting at all until after she’d hopefully dealt with N’zoth.
And while Saurfang didn’t agree with letting Sylvanas go on to fight N’zoth, he also realized that Sylvanas had the military advantage and gambled on his duel in order to avoid even more fighting.
Basically, it’s not crazy to think that Sylvanas’ former forces, when combined with the rebels couldn’t have been a challenge to the remaining Alliance forces at the gates of Orgirmmar.
Um. No there they didn’t. N’Zoth’s forces still made it into both Halls of Origination and the Mogu’shan Vaults despite said forces.
And everyone else disregarded not only that Sylvanas would fight N’Zoth, but also that their forces could not match Sylvanas’.
Saurfang didn’t challenge Sylvanas because he thought their forces would lose. He challenged her because he still saw the people inside of Orgrimmar as Horde and didn’t want them to die any more than he wanted the people who, as Thrall pointed out, came to die for him to do so, either.
I didn’t say it was crazy. I said Alleria could be wrong, and there’s nothing to support that her statement was accurate.
1 Like
Alleria never said they couldnt win the siege, she said they needed sylvanas forces to fight nzoth.
1 Like
Which raises the questions of why recruit said small forces in the first place. Why not field actual armies instead of token defensive forces that end up being overtaken?
Again, nobody ever suggested that Sylvanas was UNDEFEATABLE.
Merely that Sylvanas possessed the superior military force compared to those arrayed against her. This assertion is made in game, and never disregarded. It’s never questioned by anyone in game. It’s suggested that it’s irrelevant and a moot point, but is never actually refuted.
Again you conflate an understanding that one is generally outmatched or has low chance of success with a belief in inevitable failure. Acknowledging your enemy has the advantage militarily doesn’t make them undefeatable and doesn’t make your defiance futile.
1 Like
Indeed. I never said she didn’t say they couldn’t win the siege either. Merely pointing out that Sylvanas had a very powerful army. An army so powerful that even her enemies acknowledged that it was “the only army capable of defeating N’zoth.” even as they gather to try and defeat it before hoping to go on and face N’zoth themselves.
I only refer to these statements as evidence to support the idea that Sylvanas’ forces, when combined with Saurfang’s forces, could have left Anduin’s forces in quite a bad way had they been inclined.
Which they are wrong about
in which anduin doesnt have his full forces