You are actually right on this one, this a problem with many things in wow, you can see it with people who like the flying restrictions and those who don’t and even the classic has people that want #nochanges and those who don’t mind them.
And while you can’t please everyone not doing anything isn’t really better, torghast wasnt a content that anyone could clear with whatever gear and it didn’t provide any kinda of progression.
So it wasn’t easy and it didn’t give progression, ofc it eventually flopped
Sure, I was actively on the forums at the time. Go back and check out some of the contemporary horrific visions threads from that time and you’ll find me posting in them.
It’s pretty clear you weren’t paying attention back then, though.
Wasn’t the testers who had the meltdown that got the timer (and gear) removed.
Not at all. People in places like General Discussion got one whiff that there was a timer and started breaking out the torches and pitchforks.
There were many people legit saying “If I want to bloodlust on every trash pack in Torghast, and wait 10 minutes between pulls, then that’s my god-given right and how DARE Blizzard stand in my way. REMOVE THE TIMER.”
So Blizzard removed the timer. And then gear went with it, because it was no longer an extension of the Horrific Visions model.
This was VERY early in Shadowlands development. Barely anybody had even seen the inside of Torghast.
But the placeholder gear drop was still there through the end of alpha.
You literally gave me bad examples and I’m the one who didn’t pay attention?
I just search for vision and horrific vision before the end of Feb and jan of 2020, only one of the most view and most relevant threads were about hating vision.
So while I don’t doubt there were threads it wasn’t nearly as universal as you trying to make it.
The timer was trash, Like I hope we can all agree with that, but what was bigger trash is the gear stop dropping from the content because they had to remove timer. A bad idea all around… If players want to use it as a way to progress, than they should.
Blizzard is so creative bankrupt that they think timers should be the only factor in tough choices. It is dumb.
I’m sure you saw someone saying that but people were asking for seperated difficulties and one where there was no timer, this was by far the most brought up suggestions when the topic emerged
They used to have what you would call “herioc” content. Harder enemies made up of mostly elites. Technically one could say all the elites we kill on these islands that they make counts. The old dragon egg area from burning crusade. Or the primal farms.
I’m all for making world contact matter in those ways again. Especially now since tagging isn’t an issue (unless grouped up)
I don’t think it’s necessarily a lie, but I think it is intentionally obtuse and ignores the point. Solo/world players want ways to progress their character. And they deserve access to meaningful season long character progression as much as anyone else.
I do agree however that content that requires more from players, in time and skill, should give better rewards than content that doesn’t. There’s simply no example of a functional progression system where the easier content gives better or equal rewards. Even in solo/world play this rule exists, with lower level stuff giving worse rewards. Or world raid bosses. Or Mage Tower. Or any other time consuming solo/world content.
The problem WoW keeps failing to tackle is that if they give meaningful (power) progression to solo/world players, the ilvl rewards begin to overlap with raiders and pvpers. The more that overlap occurs, the more the more difficult content is de-incentivized, which Blizzard wants to avoid. Regardless of the content they enjoy, most players will take the path of least resistance to character progression. Doing LFR legitimately makes my day and mood worse, it is devoid of all joy, but boy have I done a lot of LFR in my time. And so Blizzard themselves takes the easiest route and simply cuts the knees out from solo/world player progression as a ‘solution’.
This is all compounded by how much more powerful a mythic raider feels over even a normal raider due to the ilvl gaps required to incentivize the more difficult content.
What is the solution? I don’t know. There’s too many players in the solo/world category who have different tastes and priorities for a one size fits all. If you do more group world content, solo players hate it. If you do more challenging or grindy content, lower skill/effort players feel left out. If you do more solo content, people start complaining it doesn’t feel like an MMO anymore. If I made the shots though, I’d leverage crafting through a world content included justice point style system that allows players to make powerful gear over time, at a rate slower than simply raiding or doing pvp.
TLDR; I think both sides of this argument are ignoring the validity of the opposing side’s feelings on the matter. Solo/world players deserve character meaningful progression. PvPers, Raiders, Mythic+ers deserve higher rewards to match the higher hurdles they’re jumping.
Another interesting element is that high-end raiders/M+'ers seem to do more world content than “world content players”.
I, as a CE raider, as well as many of my CE friends, certainly have way more world content done every expansion than the people asking for more world content do.
