I don’t know about that. I love raiding and yet I can’t even bring myself to do it anymore.
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You’re spare parts bud
“Many systems have been added or tweaked to pander to Mythic raiders.”
- Fact
“Then why am I unhappy with the game?”
- Mythic Raider
Do people think that’s an actual counter-argument? Just because many vocal Mythic raiders are extremely whiny and extremely entitled doesn’t mean Blizzard isn’t making moves to cater to Mythic raiders.
HELLO? The entire Domination Socket system is meant to pander to Mythic raiders. Ion Hazzikostas looks the other way on the influence it has on M+ers or other types of players in order to hard pander to raiders. The same thing happened with the removal of titanforging, as well as numerous other fundamental game design decisions that had fundamental shifts in the landscape. Removing “Loot+” was no small thing and really left casual/non-endgame players feeling alienated with little form of progression, so let’s not pretend there are not ripple effects and negatives.
Heck, I would argue a strong backlash to Shadowlands itself was due 9.0’s lack of Loot+ combined with lack of a long-tail substitute was a large contributor to tourists dropping off faster than usual. I’m not saying I want titanforging back personally but let’s not pretend it wasn’t removed to pander ot Mythic Raiders.
Really? Because I see a number of comments over on /r/competitivewow where people are claiming they’re already raid-logging, because M+ doesn’t reward them this season and there’s nothing to do outside of the raid to progress their character once they’ve already done their Korthia grind. There’s no artifact / azerite grind, there’s no titanforging, there’s no nothing. You’re simply time-gated waiting for Renown to unlock some of your empowered conduits and then you’re raiding.
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agree totally
some people are impossible to please - doesn’t mean they haven’t tried almost to the exclusion and often deteriment of every other type of player - and raiders haven’t been happy longer than that - WoD was the result of raiders complaining in MoP.
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Mythic plus was made to please raiders. Raiders complained they didn’t want to do multiple difficulties of the same raid to get gear (especially complained that LFR was one of them).
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raiders complained about too much loot in BFA and that loot wasn’t ‘special’ enough then - that is what caused reduced drops
the example Ion gave for master loot was people trialing with mythic raid guilds and not getting gear - i.e raiders again
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Absolutely.
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It’s weird seeing people try to pin raiders for literally every issue that the game has. All raiders want is hard content that rewards us appropriately for beating it. This game has the best raids in the entire MMO landscape, due to the amount of time and effort that is put into them. Making us a scapegoat for your concerns isn’t helping your argument or going to help win people to your side.
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The needs of the many (casuals) should outweigh the needs of the few (raiders).
It is only logical.
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The trouble is this. Blizzard literally cannot put any content in the game for other people without you guys going ocd about it. Not every piece of content is intended for you but if you choose to do it don’t complain about it.
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I have a somewhat unique opinion on this. Don’t judge prematurely until you read all of what I have to say.
I don’t raid and couldn’t care less about raiding, except when it’s old content that I can faceroll for stuff. Current content raiding is a tedious, torturous, and extremely boring experience for me. I’d quit the game if I were forced to raid, and I have little to nothing in common with raiders. HOWEVER, I consider raiders a very crucial portion of the player base, and I fully recognize the importance of keeping them happy.
Current content raiders are arguably the most important portion of the player base, and they must be kept happy. Raiders are the heart and soul of WoW, as it is RAIDS that are the main draw of the game. Everything else is a side show compared to that, including pvp.
Granted, we’re all important to the success of the game – casuals, questers, pvpers, pet battlers, RP’ers… all of us. But the world we play in has been and continues to have its core foundation supported by the continued interest and involvement of raiders.
That’s my opinion. You’re welcome to yours.
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Right back at you 
I don’t want to see a complaint about how hard torghast floor 12 is or how long Korthia takes then. Korthia is the perfect example of player agency that casuals asked for and now they complain about.
really you think that content isn’t intended for people who don’t raid?
What is player agency? As far as I am concerned that is something raiders wanted, not people who just do world content. I loved the gearing system in legion and to a lesser extent BfA until they got rid of titanforging which raiders hated.
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Titanforging was thrown out because it was an objectively bad system. Why do you have an issue with only the best gear coming from the hardest content? You can do casual WoW content just fine with the gear you get from said casual content.
lol titanforging was a great system - as Ion himself was able to accurate identify - it is the skilled players who objected most to RNG, not the more casual world content players.
why do you have issue with other people having good gear - you literally claimed all you care about is hard content for you and appropriate rewards - now you are showing the attitude that ruins the game for others.
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Warlords was the result of a poor business decision in trying to release an expansion every year and realizing they couldn’t halfway through. It had nothing to do with raiders complaining in Mists in anyway.
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actually the exact opposite
all of the awful systems, grinds, campaigns etc exist because casual players complained that they had nothing to do
no raider enjoys and of that stuff and it wasn’t designed for them in the first place
what you’re seeing is blizzard catering to the “sick of raid or die !!!” camp
they’re just doing a really bad job because they literally don’t know how to create content that isn’t raiding
Wait, do you think Tier 6 Conduits and Socket upgrades are for casuals? When they’re already going to sink most of their research into 233 upgrades?
Did you think Venari grind was for casuals?
These grinds are meant to give raiders something to do in the game to “meaningfully progress their character” in a way that doesn’t undermine raiding itself. It’s specifically designed as a supplementary power progression specifically for raids.
Many raiders quit in Warlords of Draenor because as much as people SAY they want to raid log, what raiders actually want is for raid loot to be the best but also have other forms of content in the game that they can participate in to get rewarded for. The problem with torghast for raiders was that it was “too mandatory”, whereas you see much less whining about Venari rep or Archivist codex because they were smaller power gains (about 2% DPS increase in summation between the gems and the conduit upgrades).
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Confused what this means.
PvP gear was buffed if anything, it’s just only good in PvP now, as it should be since it is called PVP gear.
And as someone who has geared a character entirely through pvp and nothing else, I don’t see how it’s not a legitimate gearing method for pvp. (And it’s honestly not even that bad in PvE either…)
I would say the exact opposite is true.
Most mythic raiders also do key runs. We play both types of content to maximise our power levels.
Every raider I know hates this system.
Nobody likes Torghast. In fact its a system that should be entirely revamped. For high end mythic raiders who have multiple toons, this system is infinitely worse to keep toons up to date.
Almost all of the points you raise are pointing the finger at mythic raiders being the source of the problem, when in fact, its just bad game and system design.
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