WoW killed itself for raiders over 7 years

Thanks I appreciate that.

Raiders want the best gear for raiding. The idea of having things that only give the buffs in raid that are earnt in raid such as dom sockets does actually have merit I think. It was just inplamented terribly. Same goes for the mana pearl gear in 8.2. The acquisition and power of the gear was too much hut the idea of gear that specifically helps in raid and not keys or world quests or pvp isn’t a bad one.
There used to be the pvp stat didn’t there? Resilience? Something like that that made pvp gear best for pvp.

I’m not raiding atm but I haven’t met a Raider that cares what World quest Andy or andrena has unless… It is something that would help them kill raid bosses faster and if it does then the raider wants it.

A streamer (who I won’t name because everyone on here hates them for some reason even though they always seemed very reasonable and level headed) talked about having open world gear with abilities like a grapple (similar to a rogue chain) or similar type of things to help you in the open world. That way world quest Andy and andrena can get thier bis and mythic Raider doesn’t want to get the same gear so it can have different paths of acquisition.

I don’t really have a well thought out answer but I know what they are doing currently is making no one happy

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While I agree with many points in your post, I think you got this one pretty wrong.

For raid loggers, Korthia is a thorn in their side because they need to do a TON of activities to get to Research 6 (for gems).

Torghast was similarly bad for them, as they needed to run it for Legendarys.

Trust me raiders are not praising this xpac either. Get your facts straight before running off at the mouth.

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OP is criticizing Blizzard for pandering to raiders, not raiders themselves. It doesn’t matter if they like it or not, the past many expacs have revolved around them.

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Since Legion the xpac have rotated around chores to keep people busy and to drive up the time played measurement for them to show to their investors.

Raiding since WoW started has and always will be considered the end game of all end game content to WoW. If that is not what you want or expect in WoW then your playing the wrong game.

Thing is you don’t have to raid to simply just have fun in the game. And they make it pretty easy to see the content as far as the story line that any raid contains outside of said raid.

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I don’t disagree that WoW revolves around raiding, but stop being rude to OP just because you misread their post.

I aint being rude, I being blunt, and I don’t care if they mute me. That is their problem, not mine.

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Gave you a like because I think portions of what you are saying here are valid. I am generally in the camp of the OP but I understand why, if raiding and that sort of high level challenging large group content is your thing, you don’t want to have to do busy work.

Personally, I just want a well balanced game that has multiple facets people can choose to play or choose not to play and truly feel progression in those areas while not having other content spheres trivialize their efforts.

But my point, generally tossed aside by the raiding crowd, is that right now, and for the better part of the existence of WoW, the raiding sphere has essentially trivialized most other aspects of the game. For the PVE aspect of the game, raiding is like Rome, all roads lead to it - and everything is somewhat subservient to it.

My efforts in the many posts above is to foster the idea that different aspects of the game should be treated separately or at least qualitatively differently. It’s not a stretch of the imagination that most people who pvp do not want to hardcore arena and most people who pve do not want to hardcore mythic raid. We need to stop treating the game as if they do and let people pursue the paths that interest them.

In essence, alternate progression is what mythic+ offers and why it’s so darn popular. It’s mostly a true alternate progression path to raiding, a path which also scales. The problem though is that raiding gear is good in mythic+ and mythic+ gear is good in raiding. Therefore raiders have often been compelled to do mythic+ and mythic+ players will always somewhat live in the shadow of raiders. Therefore, large parts of the player base are not happy.

My suggestions above, so vigorously rebuked by the usual suspects, are an attempt to address these issues.

It would take a paradigm shift and a change of how stats and gear functions in the game as the goal would be to make dungeon gear best for dungeons but mediocre in raids and open world content. The same would apply to open world gear and raid gear.

To me it makes sense. You don’t wear backpacking gear to your day job if you are a car salesman and you don’t wear a suit and a tie if you are about to go surfing. I mean you could, but those outfits wouldn’t optimally suit those purposes.

But with raiding gear, you kind of get a wetsuit, hiking gear, plus a suit and tie all rolled into one.

So these are just quick thoughts of the top of my head:

Make real world gear mainly about survival, exploring, crafting, travel, role playing, diplomacy, and fighting the types of monsters you encounter out doors.

Make dungeon gear more about stealth, exploring dungeons, detecting traps, finding treasure, solving archaelogical puzzles, platforming, and fighting the type of monsters found in dungeons.

Make raid gear about the inter-relatedness and synergistic effects of large groups, taking down massive foes, warding off massive spikes of damage, taking on epic beings in size and abilities, penetration of titan/god armor, and that sort of thing. Really focus on how to tailor gear to face complicated layered multiphase mechanics vs epic sized foes.

Make Arena gear about what is inherent to arenas (burst, control, cc, survivability, etc.)

Make BG and large scale gear more about what leads to improved performance in territorial control and things such as scouting, holding ground, controlling seige equipment, defending towers, achieving objectives, etc.

Right now gear is mainly just a numbers get bigger affair and raiders always get the biggest numbers. It’s a boring but convenient system that’s easy to create but leaves a lot of want in the player base, hence all the acrimony we have seen for 16 years.

Yes, gear would still have numbers but there’s a lot of functionalilty you could add as well. This notion should be intuitive and make perfect sense because that’s how wearable equipment functions in real life.

Not even saying the above is THE way to go but something needs to happen in the MMO gamespace and particularly WoW that is beyond the treadmill of repeatedly doing the exact same things so that numbers just get bigger with periodic resets to that curve to keep the carrot ever dangling.

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:+1:

Do people think that Conduits/Sockets are ACTUALLY mandatory to clear the content? Because they aren’t.

Conduit/socket upgrade grinds are created SPECIFICALLY FOR LESS SKILLED RAIDERS, to give them something to do to allow them to increase their power level in a way that doesn’t marginalize the raid loot they get. It is made SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM. This is not a question or discussion. It is mental gymnastics when these people blame casuals for “having to do the Venari grind” as if the entire point of that grind existing wasn’t specifically for them.


This thread is honestly so weird to me. You’ve got people talking about how “WoW has always been about raids” (and it essentially has been), and then getting all upset and defensive when you mention that a system they don’t like was made specifically for raiders. They are two sides of the same exact coin. There’s some weird cult-like behavior going on to think that the raiding side of this game is pure and blameless. It’s so good content and provides a solid foundation for the game but this is a game made by people who make mistakes; people really need to stop pretending the design team haven’t simply screwed up in the execution of their designs.

Anywho, with Legion M+ Timewalking on the horizon with some unique mogs to earn, I really don’t have the interest in continuing to talk about Dom Sockets anymore - I’m personally focusing on progging my alts as much as possible now with or without dom socket so I can pick up those FOMO mogs while they’re on offer. With a tangible target to hit (rather than striving for “absolute bis” and endless IO), the meta of 9.1/9.1.5 is/will be a much easier pill to swallow.

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Thanks for the great posts.

Yes, that’s exactly how I think modern WoW needs to be if it wants to retain a high number of players, and that’s the direction I thought WoW was going to go, until we got to Shadowlands and saw Mythic Plus nerfed, solo gearing removed entirely, and PvP gearing turned into something the community never asked for.

Giving each type of gear different perks and abilities might be too tall of an order for the current development team (who claims that it is too much to add even a single new talent row every two years, despite hundreds of new traits popping up in secondary systems).

I wonder if they could make it so that all gear scales up by 13 item levels in the content in which it was earned, in the categories of raids, dungeons, PvP, Torghast (with gearing system implemented) and open world. Some cross-over would be possible, but not mandatory.

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Which is the reason lfr was created in the first place. It baffles my mind how anyone think that the majority raids normal or above.

We know from API analysis sites like worldofwargraphs that around 40% of the playerbase gets Ahead of the Curve pretty reliably every raid tier. Been that way for years, in fact.

When you add on the people that do some Heroic (but don’t finish) and the people who do Normal, it’s extremely likely you’re talking about a majority.

In fact, here’s a little reverse math from Antorus (just to pick one example):
Percentage with AOTC: 39.4%
Percentage with Seat of the Pantheon (defeat Argus on any difficulty): 76.8%
76.8% minus 39.5% = 37.3%, which is less than the %% with AOTC

So there were MORE people who beat Argus on Heroic, than there were who beat him on LFR or Normal but NOT on Heroic. And keep in mind that includes Normal lumped in with the LFR players!

People who only do LFR are a very small portion of the playerbase.

I doubt many are doing LFR either, it’s mostly worthless.

That site hasn’t been updated since 2019 lol.

That’s true, because Blizzard shut off the API so sites like it and realmpop don’t work anymore. We’re working in the dark as to current trends. But the data is remarkably consistent for many years before that.

Now, if you think there are MORE people who don’t do end-game content now than in previous years, you could cast some doubt on the numbers. But given that the attrition seems to be hitting hardest on the people who don’t really play the game, I’d wager that the %% of raiders as a portion of the current playerbase is probably higher than before, in fact.

API hasn’t been shut off. How exactly do you think RaiderIO gets it’s info?

They’re trying to make it into an E-sport. If you look at all the changes they’re all designed to look better on streaming with less down time. Like how during invasions you can constantly pick up goblets for tiny little boosts, like we’re playing Doom or something, or how during Torghast they keep adding powers that make you run around and collect orbs. That’s all designed to increase the “sport”. It adds up to less time sitting and eating food or healing up or exploring, because you have to do something constantly.

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“Do not want to play” and “not required for borrowed power” are not the same. Make it so I don’t have to do stupid WQ for renown or run keys and I’m fine with my gear being less strong for that content. Raid gear is already less strong for PvP. Tanks like vers but most raiders stack other secondary stats.

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Thanks for the great thread. Sadly, I doubt WoW will ever get the shakeup it needs.

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Just because raiders don’t like the way the game is now doesn’t change the fact that virtually all systems in place in 9.1 are either tailored to incentivize raiders to keep playing, or are hamstrung so that raiders don’t feel like they have to do them.

The raiders that outright deny that this thread has any basis are either doing some serious mental gymnastics, or haven’t even read what anyone is actually saying before overreacting to perceived blasphemy against raids or raiders.

Competitive raiders are easy to design around, though. They will do any grind (such as Stygia in 9.0, and catalogued research in 9.1) for even the tiniest gain in power.

Other types of players seem more selective with their time and effort. Even above 1800 rating in rated PvP, I still see many players wearing a few slots of last season’s gear, even though they could have easily upgraded with this season’s Honor gear with a little grinding. Anecdotally speaking, I know raiders that do M+ just to supplement their Great Vault options, but I don’t know any M+ fans that raid just for gear to make their key runs smoother. Many casuals apparently find Korthia to be too much of a grind, as I have never seen anyone with more than a couple of slots of 226 (current max) gear, and those people are usually also raiding or doing M+ to some degree.

The raiding community has its own level of dedication, but are constantly giving feedback about every aspect of the game and how it relates to them. The devs obviously have not done a good job of balancing the ever changing wants of the raiders with the needs of the game as a whole.