hahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahhaa
Oh my god what is wrong with you
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Gear is wasted less often. A mountain of gloves is worthless. Filling a slot is the goal. The group setting is far more efficient, because gear is wasted less. It means your cadence on upgrades is ever increasing. Itâs not a wash. Itâs a closed system, unlike m+ loot.
And lol valor. You can almost get what, 2 or 3 pieces of almost good gear over the course of the entire season? Itâs worthless. Iâd rather they remove it than what it is now, just purely insulting.
VP upgrades a pretty good system. Iâm wearing more upgraded VP gear than I am non-dom socket SoD gear.
âŚWhat?
You can get a ton of valor pieces upgraded. If you only do one key a week sure itâs slow. But if youâre only doing one key a week, you arenât putting a fraction of the hours into the game that raiders do to raid. My guild raids 12 hours a week; if I did M+ 12 hours a week, Iâd have a ton of slots to upgrade valor in. On top of that, M+ is not capped by a schedule like raids are so if you want to you can do it infinitely. I at most do 4 keys a week but typically only one and I still upgraded both of my trinket slots to max weeks ago with Valor, which are huge upgrades.
If you donât think gear gets wasted in raid, I donât know what to tell you. We throw away tons of pieces all the time. It just sounds like you havenât spent enough time in a raid setting to be able to be saying all this.
You look at any raider thatâs raiding at the CE level, half of their gear will be M+ gear. Itâs a completely competitive avenue to gear up.
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âlooks like weâre deâing 3 Vers Mastery cloaks again cause we got 3 last week and no-one wanted them eitherâ.
- My raid after literally every shriekwing kill.
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Except that raiders absolutely hate the Mythic tax.
Raiders donât want to be forced to grind Korthia for 2 hours per character every day to be drip-fed power gains.
Raiders donât want to be forced to slog through Choregast on a weekly basis to unlock conduit upgrades and craft some arbitrary legendary item that isnât legendary because everyone playing the spec is using the same one.
Raiders donât want to do islands, or warfronts, or daily quests, or farm stupid Artifact Power, Anima Power, or Azerite Power.
Raiders want to RAID, and the raids in WoW have been so good that we have been willing to tolerate the inconveniences that are required to play said raids. The game isnât designed for us, itâs designed for casuals who want endless and pointless open world grinds because they are too lazy, scared, or socially awkward to play in a group setting.
Imagine actually still whining about Nathria itemization to justify a whiny attitude towards M+ or whatever other content exists in the game. Rent-free, lol.
Wrong. Raiders who raid-log are more likely to quit than those who do more than just raid-log. And quitting is the only true vote that matters. More raiders quit during patches they can raid-log as opposed to patches where they canât.
Heck, you could raid log the last tier and I wouldnât be surprised if that contributed towards the fall-off at the very tail-end of the content drought. Raiders hate raid-logging but will stick with a patch if theyâre held at gunpoint. This is actually a case of âyou think you do, but you donâtâ. And Blizzard watches the behavior of these raiders and how they vote with their wallets and then forces the grind on all the rest of us.
If there was incentive for ppl to go back and complete older raids or do more raiding to progress other content that would help the game fill out some of the raids more as well. Thereâs some incentive, some incentive to do mythics, and some incentive to even run at least a normal/heroic dungeon each day. It shouldnât be that hard to create some kind of currency for raiding that isnât neccissary AND still usefull throughout the rest of the game, giving people lots of incentive to raid.
Also the raids for Shadowlands just arenât as fun as previous expansions. They just arenât. They are either symplified to much or too scripted, hardcoded. And the aesthetics feel so off, depressing.
Iâve been valor capped literally since I started playing this character. I do an 25-30 m+ every week because (in my opinion) itâs the best thing about this game. Itâs more fun than raiding and pvp, even though I canât get any loot out of it other than the weekly box. Iâm still pushing keys sub with a sub 240 item level on a meme class, because I think itâs fun. It would be awesome if it was as rewarding as sitting in a raid bored out of my freaking mind while we wait for the lowest common denominator to learn the mechanics.
My item level is lower than any mythic raider with more than terragrue down.
I have not yet earned enough valor in season 2 to fully upgrade my weapons for the two specs that I play, let alone any other piece. Iâm also hesitant to spend that valor on upgrading a weapon, because I canât possibly get it to the level of a drop out of the puggable bosses in the raid or the vault. Since this is my alt (although I play it the most), Iâm confined to doing the puggable bosses. Valor is a dumpster of a system that causes more problems than it solves. Itâs worthless.
I know plenty about raiding. I was a GM and raid leader for years, then I quit the game. I literally came back for m+, and though I still get AOTC and some mythics with my guild, we donât usually get CE, we just reclear the first half of the raid while we rotate 30 people into the last few spots right before they quit the game in some never ending nightmare of reminders about why I stopped raiding in the first place.
Honestly, I donât even know what weâre arguing about. The math has been done ad nauseam. You can feel how you wanna feel, but the numbers donât lie. Graph the loot distribution yourself. M+ rewards is a political argument as this stage. âOh, I could fail one key and get a 252 bis itemâ well, I could put one boss and 3 252 BiS items, if weâre talking about hypotheticals.
No one cares about low effort mouth breathers who fail their way loot on the backs of their mates. Letâs not pretend every raid doesnât have that guy (and if you raid, someone just came to your mind) that needs to be carried through because theyâre an officers SO, best fiend, or server booster or whatever.
Effort and skill should be rewarded. It would be great if 80 hours of m+ could give me the same benefit as 80 hours of raiding, but it doesnât. I should be able to raid and/or m+ when I want to and be rewarded for that effort. And honestly, Iâm not sure it if can with the kind of rigid thinking thatâs going on behind the scenes, and honestly, in this thread. Raiding is like previous generation IT solution hanging over everyoneâs head. New solutions can be better without being sucky in the same way.
Examples. Loot lockouts. Biggest reason raiders (especially heroic âraidersâ) hate on m+. Someone like me who does 5-6 every night will be 236 in a week or two. The default position is to try and impose lockouts on m+. Why? Why poop on someone elseâs lawn when youâre is brown? Just remove loot lockouts. Kill boss â get loot.
Oh, but mythic raiders quit when they hit max gear. So it has to be metered. Ok, meter out the mythic loot. Unlock heroic and under, and mythic can just get one piece of loot from the vault every week like m+ players do. Best part - mutually exclusive, so they donât have to run m+ if they donât want to. Mythic raid locks exist purely to dissuade people from pugging mythic bosses. This ainât conjecture, thatâs literally what came out of Ions mouth in an interview when they killed 10 man raiding. They felt it was more âepicâ to do it with your guild than to have your try hard puggers get CE while your raid loggers struggled.
It just has to be fair. Effort and reward should be equal. You shouldnât be forced to do content that doesnât appeal to you in order to do the content that does. Thatâs all Iâm saying. Go ahead and quote something out of context and try and tape together a strawman, but at the end of the day, the rewards and the pacing should be equal and fair.
Swarf, I feel exactly the same way. Thanks for stating it so clearly.
Raiders are important. They should have the best gear. I donât need BiS for PVE. My ego doesnât need that much stroking.
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Thatâs because raiders do raids and keys. If you only do keys, you will be behind.
Okay. And Iâm 9/10M and have never seen a weapon drop in Mythic nor have we had one tradeable and I only have a 252 weapon because of the M+ vault.
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If M+ offered the same iLvl loot the pacing and effort wouldnât be fair though. M+ already total half of any raiders equipped items with valor upgrades and vault selections. Any more and it would be an easy majority.
Youâre just wrong about the rate of gearing from raid man. Thatâs the disconnect here.
Nah, the raids are fun. SoD is actually awesome. The problem with 9.1 is that we didnât just get an awesome raid and an awesome M+ system; we got a bunch of systems to cater to people who are quite literally in this very thread still whining about Nathriaâs itemziation. 9.0 raid itemization living in their head rent-free.
Like, hell, my guild finished the CN tier 7/10M and being straight up honest I think Nathria loot was sad too (nobody got any upgrades from our prog kill of Council), but people made it a %%%%ing crusade to get Blizzard to make raid loot better rather than just playing the content for fun (you know, the way M+ers play M+ - I donât get any loot for timing a Mythic 22 for instance but I do it for fun). They just couldnât enjoy the content, they had to whine about how they werenât the special snowflake.
No other player group except Mythic Raiders whines about not being supreme. PvPers just want their PvP loot to be good in PvP, M+ers just want their M+ loot to be good in M+, but a vocal minority of Mythic Raiders just canât handle other forms of progression being worthwhile. Theyâve always gotta push more and more and get greedy. Itâs sad.
SoD isnât terrible, the raids arenât bad. Their good, they just donât feel âgreatâ and special to me.
I really do like painsmith and Hellscream though.
Otherwise I agree, the raid loot being the "bestâ loot is unesscessary, I still had a lot of fun progressing raids in bfa even though most of what I equipped was mythic + gear.
I remember some stuff, like the trinkets from crucible standing out as really good for most of that expac tho and thereâs nothing wrong with that, even lfr/ and normal crucible trinkets were so great! Itâs ok for that to happen without needing mythic trinkets or w/e
They removed dedicated âPVPâ servers for the raiders, so they wouldnât be ganked, every expac, new dungeons, new raids, big time vs how many new BGS? Letâs weigh out how many dungeons and raids are made for every expac vs how many new bgs and arenas?
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Yup. Removed PvP servers because the top raiders were on PvP servers and carebears who wanted to app to those guilds rolled PvP and got ganked and whined. Itâs legitimately kind of insane that a core feature of the entire game got gutted to pander to pups whining.
I donât actually know what alternate dimension anyone can live in when people can say with a straight face that the raid scene has not caused a warping effect on the entire game. Raids donât just exist, that cause everything to warp around them. PvP seasons are based on when the new raid is finished development. New meta-progression systems that infect PvP are based on designs they think will âspice upâ raiding.
Itâs actually legitimately completely insane. The raids are fun, donât get me wrong, I actually think the content is great, itâs just the community around it is toxic and entitled. Theyâre so entitled that they donât even think their entitlement is undeserved - they think it is completely natural for them to be as entitled as they are and that it is an insult if you suggest otherwise.
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You nipped it in the bud there, itâs the carebear of World of "War"craft that made them make these changes, crying on live streams about being ganked on servers that were meant to be for open-world PVP when you venture out. Theyâre even forcing us that live for PVP to do raids and dungeons, and we donât have a problem getting it done and moving on. The number of tears of agony anymore. I got banned on Illidan for a couple of hours for ganking someone I had no idea they were a streamer, nor did I know who it was when I played alliance on there for years where it was 99% horde at the time before they took out the true âPVPâ server. Now I switched to Moonguard to RP in War Mode killing everyone I can. They even still exist with war mode on heavy one-sided realms, âI just reported you for griefing me while I tried to kill you in the MawâŚâ Yes, they even come over and take the time to pst ya still to this day and claim theyâre reporting you for killing them in open world pvp while flagged with WM on. Itâs the only way to get the fix of world pvp in retail, going to the âminorityâ side and in my case, Iâm still learning the RP aspect of ganking, which has been fun! 
Dont make me laugh. Blizz even changed the tier artwork for LFR because raiders complained that casuals looked like they had gear.
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I actually think there is something wrong with you. This is such severe and obsessive delusion.