WoW is an elitist mess

I’m the one on here bashing casuals as much as anyone, and frankly, alot of them deserve it. The non-stop complaining here about why they don’t have the same stuff as people that play 10 x as much as them at 10x the difficulty is just pathetic. The constant whining about how they can’t walk into groups when 30 other people are trying to fit into 5 is pathetic. Their constant whining about everything is pathetic. The nonsense that they spout just demonstrates how ignorant they are of how the game works.

The thing that really gets my goat is the expectations around loot. ’ There shouldn’t be such a big gap in loot’, ‘where is my progression?’, ‘why is this gear only ilevel xyz (normal raid std)’. They think they should be able to keep on doing the same thing over and over again and the rewards for the same wq or LFR should just keep getting higher. Why? ‘I pay my 15 bucks to’ isn’t an argument. Why should someone playing 5 hours a week doing only wqs have normal/heroic/ mythic raid gear? They’re so ignorant they think every raider is walking around with a 226 ilevel. There are CE raiders that don’t have that. The casuals systems of gearing should place them at around 198-200 by now if they are actually playing the game, like at all. I’m 218. Im 1800 rbgs and 1000rio, so what is a fair gap between us? I do 10 m+ every week and have ground out 130 odd rbgs. What’s a fair gap to reflect their considerably less effort, 205, 210, 215? 205 invalidates the efforts of casual normal guilds right off the bat. 210 invalidates semi decent heroic only guilds. 215 invalidates 90% of the game. Why does their want for gear for doing nothing outrank other people’s need to be rewarded for actually doing something. If we should accept raiding for no gear upgrades(because we can just get them from wqs), why shouldn’t casuals accept no gear from wqs. It’s frankly stupid, selfish, ignorant entitlement from alot of people on these forums, and it is completely unhealthy for the game. If you want LFR, LFG, and wqs to be your endgame, that’s fine, but its not the real endgame, there is plenty more that players can do in the world. Don’t complain that the game rewards reflect this.

Their pathetic worldview seeps into every aspect of wow. These were the same people that were using addons to fake achievements to get into groups and routinely ask blizz to break addons like raiderio. I haven’t even used raiderio until SL, and ill tell you what, it is a eye opener. 190 ilevel people with 200io scores applying to +10s/12s when their best gear on the dungeon is a +4, yeah ok. They’ll arrogantly whinge that my unwillingness to carry them through something they haven’t even come close to doing before so they can skip an entire layer of gear progression is ‘elitist’. I’m not your slave, i get to play with who I want. If you keep on getting declined for groups, maybe you’re the problem. I respect people’s time, I don’t sign up for something I don’t think I have a really good chance of succeeding at. I don’t have to ruin my fun so you can have yours.

These casuals are the same people that will call what I have just said as ‘toxic’, and then in the same breath call me names and infer I am single (i’m not), neckbeard (well sorta), with no job (100k+ job actually). Its the same dance over and over again. Frankly, I’m glad Blizz kicked their teeth in after BFA. They gave 95% of what raiders had, and they whinged non stop about ‘where is the other 5%’. Even Blizz worked out that these people are idiots and not worth listening to, and the game is all the better for it.

For all the rubbish spoken about the gearing system right now, I am higher ilevel than I have ever been this early in a tier. I adapted to where the gear is dropping and have been rewarded for doing so. If you play a balance of content (not even that high end) it is absolutely raining gear atm. Those who refuse to (not just casuals btw), are the ones whinging.

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Dirty secret: One of the people in my M+ group brings his Surv Hunter some weeks.

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Shhhhhhh!!!

Nobody is supposed to think SV hunters are allowed into M+.

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He also plays Feral instead of Boomkin.

He is a naughty boy.

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Just a bunch of people turning WoW into an internship that leads to nothing. Some people have no power IRL, so they do what they can, where they can. Some of these people are also just trying to enjoy their game, so they are picky about grouping, but that’s nothing that can’t be worked around (make your own group).

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It’s almost like player performance matters more than player spec and people shouldn’t base their invites on spec alone.

But you want to be a contrarian and the other guy wants to make bad faith arguments, so go on.

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Ah yes, the classic setting expectations is elitist argument.

Strangers on the internet aren’t obligated to carry you if you want to play with one hand tied behind your back.

Literally no one is doing this. No one. The covenant we all picked on day 1 of Shadowlands is still the same covenant most of us are.

And most of your issues come from bad game designers that can’t balance the absolute pile of stats they’ve thrown into the game.

A higher item level piece should always be an upgrade. Period. If it’s not - that’s on Blizzard, not people telling you to sim. If Blizzard could create proper loot, this wouldn’t be an issue at all.

As for RaiderIO - It’s not a “symptom of the communities toxicity”, but a symptom of a difficulty spike the game never had any business implementing. You didn’t need IO for Classic content because there wasn’t a +20 UBRS. There was just UBRS. You didn’t need parses for BWL because it wasn’t tuned for a full 40 man doing 85-90% of their max damage or better.

These things are ALL traceable to Blizzard’s development decisions. They weren’t created for the sole purpose of terrorizing other players, they were created from necessity.

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Playing survival hunter or any other “meme spec” doesn’t go against the “setting expectations” thread you want to ride because +15 and most if not all mythic bosses is already clearable by any and all specs.

It’s like you people don’t read. If you want to base your invites on spec alone, that’s fine. You shouldn’t, but feel free to. But don’t pretend to not be an elitist by doing so. And I’m not saying being an elitist is a good or bad thing, it’s just a simple reality.

But I’m restating what I’ve already said hours ago. People just can’t read, I guess.

Or they just think you’re wrong. Which is okay. Not everyone has to agree with Blocky for the world to keep spinning. Trust me.

So elitism has basically been redefined as making the best group you can within time constraints you’ve set for yourself?

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Ralph is that you?

Take it from someone who quite literally is the 1% nobody hates casuals, we’re all very aware mythic raiding is the tiny minority.

Covenants are not fun, it’s human nature to want to be the best version of themselves. It’s nothing about elitist it’s about creating a scenario which ensures the highest chance of success - Which usually means bringing classes using the meta covenant.

If i create a key group I get around 50 DPS sign up within a minute. Why would i bring someone who does less dps which means to me they are objectively worse than their meta counterpart. What do i gain out of this? I don’t get a pat on the back for purposely making the key harder for myself lol.

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It’s really funny though.

I find the people in LFR are the most toxic people on earth. They are the self-described “casuals” that don’t care about “optimizing,” but if you suggest to them how to do the mechanics of a boss fight they instantly rage at you and act like you’re doing something wrong by trying to help the group down the boss.

And the people who don’t do keys that feel entitled to the key in my bags because they don’t like raider IO are the worst.

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Because if you haven’t done something, you don’t have experience in it. Do you call NASA and give them suggestions on space launch just because you watched Interstellar?

No. And if you did, you would be rightfully hung up on.

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But herein lies the problem:

A well developed game should not require “advanced research” before jumping in to enjoy it. You should be able to learn IN GAME what you need to know. If I have to go to Youtube and watch a video on the very specific rotation needed to defeat a boss, that is not a failure on my part as a player. That is a game design failure because if I HAVE to leave the game to figure out how to play the game, that is a problem.

The fundamental issue is that WOW has never really figured out (or bothered trying) to make the game playable for all player types. The entire issue could be nullified if there was an option for solo dungeons, where a single player could go into a “private instance” to do a dungeon (for lower rewards) to at least experience the dungeon and enjoy the story.

I have no issue with raiders and Mythic folks and PVPers that want to twink out to their heart’s content. Enjoy and have fun. But the issue is that, because the game itself is designed around raiders and Mythic folks and PVPers, casual players get left out of a lot of content story and lore-wise.

The first thing I do when I join a PUG is announce, “Hey, this is my first time in this dungeon.” And then I wait. 70% of the time, I get booted instantly. Because I am supposed to go watch a video on how to do the dungeon instead of getting to experience the dungeon for the first time. The 30% of the time I don’t get booted are fun, because those tend to be the laid back folks who are just playing to play.

And if I had unlimited play time, it wouldn’t be an issue. But I DO have limited play time because I have a full time job and I have a side hustle and I have family obligations, so that 70/30 issue is a problem. There is content I can’t experience as a player.

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Can you come up with a game example where optimal play is intuitive and always done in-game? I can’t think of any in the genres I play. Everything from chess to rts games to mobas and so forth has at a minimum outside-match work you can do.

It’s not necessary to play optimally in any game (including wow) to get some enjoyment from it, but I wouldn’t necessarily agree that everything has to be in-game or it’s bad design.

In some of these cases, you can improve entirely in-game (including in wow) but the path to get there is much longer than if you take time to improve yourself by looking at the mistakes you made and/or see what more experienced players are doing.

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There isn’t an example because Radinka is grasping at straws.

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I love the argument have I have a full time job and a family, blah blah blah dude your just not good at the game. You go on to explain about having to watch videos and research blah blah blah. 90% of the mechs haven’t changed since tbc, kill adds dont stand in bad if you have figured that simple crap out yet you bad.

You have been playing this game for over a decade honestly if all your still doing is queable content and feel the need to announce your new to a dungeon with the same kinda mechs we have seen for over a decade you bad. So get over yourself its ur own fault.

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you’re placing the burden of your learning on strangers, rather than on yourself.

it shouldn’t surprise you that some strangers aren’t ok with that.

the experience you’re looking for is one you find with friends/guildies.

but, yea. no. you don’t need to watch a video. a quick review of the dungeon journal (for bosses) and basic player competency (for bosses and trash) will get you through most trivial (ie, m0 and below) content.

some wow truths are fairly universal - don’t stand in front of mobs. don’t stand behind dragons. don’t stand in non-healer puddles on the ground (well… maybe this one isn’t universal). stick with the group. learn from mistakes.

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The average person is entitled.

That the only reply the OP needs.