Wow, doesn't feel like Warcraft anymore?

[Shaard-illidan]

TBC was the first time they really ‘messed up’ and it was only really the Draenei, who we knew as Broken beforehand, were retconned to be a non-barbaric race. We knew them as swamp-dwelling hermits.

Aside from that one thing, I don’t recall people hating the lore that much.

Alliance players mad they didn’t get elves, and that was basically the biggest outrage at the time.

Yeah, the lore was ‘muddled’ but it was certainly serviceable. It wasn’t like people outright rejected the narrative as was the case with BfA and SL.

People still played TBC and enjoyed it, even with the lore problems.

Blizzard learned they can’t kill their own villains two fast. Literally everyone (the raid bosses) in TBC came back.

Kael came back three times. Illidan, twice.

Even Gruul we saw again in WoD.

Blackhand too, and other ex-fel Orcs.

Magtheridon in Legion, Kazzak, and so-on and so-forth.

They’re still reaching back into TBC for lore, even today. We’re getting Man’ari which first appeared in TBC, and they are constantly adding new demon/warlock lore.

If we ever get a light/void expansion, I have no doubts Outland will somehow be involved- maybe as a starting point for a space-faring expansion. Same as how we use EK/Kalimdor for boats to take us to newer continents.

The Sunwell will also likely be involved, if the Void Elves are anything to go by.

There’s still a lot of rich lore in that area is what I’m saying, and that expansion was over a long time ago. The same is true for Northrend.

[Akston-area-52]

@Shaard-illidan

TBC was the first time they really ‘messed up’ and it was only really the Draenei, who we knew as Broken beforehand, were retconned to be a non-barbaric race. We knew them as swamp-dwelling hermits.

They messed up all over. Continuously.

They just wanted to throw in a bunch of big names for us to fight.

@Shaard-illidan

People still played TBC and enjoyed it, even with the lore problems.

And I have no issue with that.

My point is saying that the lore is what is holding current WoW back is inconsistent with what we know. That people will still play an expansion with major lore issues if they find other reasons to find it engaging.

[Tuwen-moon-guard]

This is a classic tactic used by people that defend the modern game. They always try to refer back to older expansions and cherry-pick the flaws, using these examples as an excuse for the poor shape the story is in today.

TBC lore was fine, every expansion that came out since Vanilla had lore inconsistencies and issues, but they were minor. The overall story was still very Warcraft. The fact that we are all playing the game today is a testament to how well received the older versions of the game were.

[Akston-area-52]

@Tuwen-moon-guard

This is a classic tactic used by people that defend the modern game. They always try to refer back to older expansions and cherry-pick the flaws, using these examples as an excuse for the poor shape the story is in today.

…what?

Its a conversation comparing modern WoW to older WoW and you dont want older WoW to be referenced?

@Tuwen-moon-guard

TBC lore was fine

No. It wasn’t.

It was a hotly talked about issue how bad TBC lore was.

@Tuwen-moon-guard

The fact that we are all playing the game today is a testament to how well received the older versions of the game were.

A game can be well received for playing and still have bad lore.

[Squeaksmcgee-area-52]

I do but I also noticed that we’re detached from it in a way.
Not sure why and maybe that’s just me. Maybe because I’m missing a lot of the story line or something but life itself is a struggle and this seems more like a struggle than an actual war until you get to the NE area where there’s actually a semblance of traditional war.

[Shaard-illidan]

@Akston-area-52

My point is saying that the lore is what is holding current WoW back is inconsistent with what we know.

I just think the issue lies in them trying to create new lore rather than follow what already exists.

TBC, Wrath, those expansions followed pre-existing lore.

Even WoD was hugely about old lore, and people liked it. The cut content is what killed that expansion.

BfA was alright in terms of story, but people didn’t like the Sylvanas 4-D chess, getting powerful offscreen, and the war campaign made people like Baine to be totally stupid and blind. It ruined fan favorite characters.

Shadowlands continued that trend. Sylvanas, and now Tyrande is being ruined to an extent (wasn’t able to defend her people, nor defeat their killer, lost to henchman) and finally the Jailor, probably the worst character we’ve ever gotten, is now being sold to us as the master puppeteer behind all WoW events.

DF seems to be them pulling back, and an attempt to bring us back into how the lore used to be. It’s not perfect, but it’s not BfA/SL quality dogwater.

It’s like we’ve been gone from Azeroth for all these years, and just picking up where Cataclysm left off. Which is somewhat true- there’s been a time skip since SL.

[Evilmuffin-uther (Evilmuffin)]

@Tuwen-moon-guard

Who else here feels like the game’s story and aesthetics don’t feel very Warcraft these days?

Truth, truth.

I am playing HC Classic right now, and man, that is loads of fun. It really brings back that feeling from the old days in WoW. It’s an absolute blast.

@Tuwen-moon-guard

Legion and BFA still felt like WoW to me

Legion did for me, aye. BFA… idk … that expansion is sort of straddling the fence a bit for me.

@Tuwen-moon-guard

but SL and DF just feel like generic fantasy.

Slands can go die in a fire. DF … yeah generic fantasy might fit the bill for that.

[Lucavitha-area-52]

@Solarion-wyrmrest-accord

Only with the use of Sylvanas with a power up directly from the Jailer himself. It’s very likely no mortal force on Azeroth could have broken that barrier.

Conjecture.

@Solarion-wyrmrest-accord

Goes back to earlier points about the story being poor and spiraling, once more: gameplay over logic and consistency.

So you agree that the Night elves aren’t a match for a concerted horde assault.

[Tuwen-moon-guard]

Anyone that is a real fan of the franchise can see that the story and the quality of writing has taken a weird turn since Legion.

If you like the BFA/SL/DF fine, but to pretend these expansions fit well into the franchise is just being completely silly. There was a marked change in the quality of writing and design decisions that started in BFA.

You can just feel that whoever is working on the game these days didn’t understand the IP very well, nor do they understand how to make a fun MMO.

I will give them this, they’re struggling to balance and design around some major design blunders that were put into the game years ago under the old guard.

It has made it hard for them to create interesting character progression.

[anon4347161]

So you live in Bakersfield. You have a point about that town.

[Erizari-moon-guard]

I agree, I feel like the touch of Warcraft was lost around BFA. BFA was great when it came to lore and Warcraft story-telling, but now it just feels like some really off, bad vibe, not warcraft kind of spot.

It’s surely on purpose. Blizzard is shooting for a new generation, they gambled, and it’s obviously failing.

[Solarion-wyrmrest-accord]

@Lucavitha-area-52

So you agree that the Night elves aren’t a match for a concerted horde assault.

Not the way Blizzard has written them, no. The way Blizzard has written them, Night Elves minus their army were capable of putting up a huge fight against the combined might of the Horde. Doesn’t pain a good picture.

[Shaard-illidan]

@Erizari-moon-guard

It’s surely on purpose. Blizzard is shooting for a new generation, they gambled, and it’s obviously failing.

What’s “cool” has changed.

What the older generation enjoyed was guitars/metal, big burly men that yelled a lot, and scantily-clad women. Warcraft pretty much was just that, since the RTS.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fxqubw5sr6cmb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Da3466dcdaa333cf60c6713cf0f40d469ec41aa51

Being a traditional male or female, has changed, and a lot has changed with it.

Social/civil rights movements are currently underway, and a lot has changed. Old minds and younger minds wil think differently on a lot of things. Some things that used to be socially acceptable, aren’t any longer.

Cat-calling, for example. It was basically allowed in WoW, there was even a /whistle that had the sexy tone, just for that.

Basically, gaming as a whole was built around “bro” culture, which is certainly toxic in some areas (women) for generations.

And now, in 2023, we are finally seeing some change, which starts with the foundation/games themselves.

Another big one I’m thankful for, is that they’ve finally realized not everyone that games is white. Humans got different ‘racial’ hair and face options in WoD, and Elves n Dwarves/Gnomes could finally be black or brown in Shadowlands.

[Kynladoria-maladath]

@Lucavitha-area-52

Please clarify whether you are talking about the warfront or the prepatch event.

I’m speaking overall. The Horde won the prepatch but as I said it is because the Night elves sent the majority of their fighting force away. That’s the reason why the blitz strategy worked. And it almost didn’t work, and wouldn’t have worked if not for Saurfang knowing about tunnels through Felwood that the Night elves for some reason did not account for.

But the victory was short lived, because once the Night elves and their allies returned, they took it back from the Horde. That’s the point I’m making. The Horde only made it as far as they did because of there being little defense and Tyrande being away.

[Thistlemilkt-wyrmrest-accord]

@Solarion-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t understand this lack of, ‘breadth of options,’ the Horde supposedly has? The Night Elves have Ancients, Mountain Giants, Hippogryphs, Druids of a dozen different varieties, Wild Gods, etc…

All that were wiped by the Legion.

Hell, look at what Sylvanas did with pretty much herself, Nathanos and Saurfang alone.

[Lucavitha-area-52]

@Solarion-wyrmrest-accord

Not the way Blizzard has written them, no. The way Blizzard has written them, Night Elves minus their army were capable of putting up a huge fight against the combined might of the Horde. Doesn’t pain a good picture.

If we’re going down this road then it would suggest that the horde should have rolled over and crushed them.

Also if we’re going to posit that it was only a fraction of their forces then it stands to reaason that the BFA expansion should have been over in the blink of an eye because they would have had a fully intact military combined with the rest of the alliance that then would have decimated the horde.

Unless your position is that the alliances military is fully comprised of night elves I suppose and the rest of them just have token troops?

[Lucavitha-area-52]

Except it wasn’t a swift recovery? Darkshore remained contested territory right up until the conclusion of the war with a comparatively tiny portion of their forces stalemating local night elf partisans.

Further their reclamation of that territory at the end of the war wasn’t wholly on their own backs but due to the efforts of the rest of the alliance and Saurfang’s rebel forces.

So again: I’m not buying that the night elves can solo the horde.

[Akston-area-52]

@Shaard-illidan

I just think the issue lies in them trying to create new lore rather than follow what already exists.

TBC, Wrath, those expansions followed pre-existing lore.

They used names from the old lore.

Then decimated it. And literally killed them all.

So by default, they had to create new lore.

Cant have another Lich King expansion, for example.

@Tuwen-moon-guard

Anyone that is a real fan of the franchise can see that the story and the quality of writing has taken a weird turn since Legion.

The ol “if you dont agree with me you arent a real fan”

[Lucavitha-area-52]

I mean, I can kind of see where he’s coming from since BFA was… a sharp drop in quality from legion with SL being bad in it’s own right.

DF though? DF feels like it’s a window into what could have been.

[Kynladoria-maladath]

@Lucavitha-area-52

Except it wasn’t a swift recovery? Darkshore remained contested territory right up until the conclusion of the war with a comparatively tiny portion of their forces stalemating local night elf partisans.

They didn’t stalemate though, they lost. They failed to hold Darkshore. Afaik there’s no indication of when the Night elves officially “won” Darkshore, whether or not it was before the end of the war. Memory is somewhat clouded because I did the quest a few years ago, but there is the quest where Tyrande invokes the Night Warrior to reclaim it, which was before the official end of the war. So I’m pretty sure Darkshore was taken back by that point.

@Lucavitha-area-52

Further their reclamation of that territory at the end of the war wasn’t wholly on their own backs but due to the efforts of the rest of the alliance and Saurfang’s rebel forces.

The only help Night elves got was from the Worgen, which is significant, but is not the rest of the Alliance. The Alliance could not or would not send resources to Darkshore. Saurfang did not help in retaking Darkshore.

I don’t necessarily agree with Solarion that the Night elves could solo the entire Horde, considering the Horde has expanded considerably in power since WC3 and Night elves have only weakened. But they would not have lost the War of Thorns if it was not for the majority of their military being away.