But M+ did not remove any content from anything anyone was doing previously.
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Yep, these players just can’t comprehend this.
No, we comprehend the idea.
We disagree with it.
Because…once again…what content is no longer available to do because m+ exists?
Except it didn’t take away from other gameplay, so the existence of m+ itself wasn’t what drove them away.
Why are you still playing and not apart of the players that were driven away by M+ just existing then?
Not true.
Not true.
Entire game was not.
If you arent logging in because m+ exists, you werent logging in before m+ exists.
Not directly.
It made it so you can’t just progression raid anymore. You have to do M+ or you can sit at the kid’s table. It added community expectations almost everywhere.
It also led to them deciding to completely trash the leveling experience as a replay loop rather than invest in making it its own thing like it used to be. That was my main content and it’s gone, unless I want to go play an incomplete classic game.
I had every single AOTC until BFA. M+ ruined raiding for me.
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But you absolutely can, depending on what content.
You can absolutely get AOTC from only progression raiding.
The only time that the leveling experience was its own thing was during vanilla. Once TBC hit, leveling was not the main content of the game.
You can absolutely get AOTC in DF without M+. I have people in my guild that do it all the time.
There has never been in a time when you could just log in and progression raid and not be expected to be doing other tedious content to remain competitive. That is the price you pay for doing progression raiding. Even in Vanilla people were logging in to grind out reps, farm for pieces of gear, doing dungeons, etc. This raid logging progression raiding utopia has quite literally never existed in this game, and trust me, you would much rather be doing M+ as your side hustle to stay competitive over what people had to be doing previously.
Do you not remember artifact power or azerite armor?
If you just want to raid and that’s what you enjoy doing, you can just do that, but it’s going to be at the expense of not being competitive, that’s always how it’s been in this game.
I agree and to put it in context of my response.
I do not consider AOTC “competitive” raiding. Which means it can absolutely be done without farming M+.
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It’s actually the only way to get it, funny enough. But GL finding a raid team who will take someone who only logs in to raid, right? If you don’t run M+ you’re handicapping your team. It’s too lucrative of a game mode.
You can’t back that up, but I’d love to see you try. From my experiences as an altoholic, the world was always very much always alive on the few servers I leveled on, all the way through MoP. It kept busy in WoD because alts were valuable, and it only died in Legion.
You have people you bring in your progression raid team who don’t touch M+? Maybe you’re the rare raid leader who allows such things, but I haven’t seen a single progression raid group that’ll take people who don’t do their M+ chores.
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Well yeah, because most people in this game actually enjoy doing M+. I’m sure there’s guilds out there who only like raiding, but they are more rare and harder to find because M+ is popular because people actually enjoy doing it. There’s lots of guilds out there that only raid so people can get gear to do M+.
Exactly, and the system doesn’t foster people making new connections either, which the old versions did. Even to this day, people are making new connections in Classic all the time, because that version of the game embodies the casual spirit that the original devs wanted the game to have.
The modern game is very much geared towards the more dedicated players. Casual players, that are looking for a more casual MMO are basically treated as a second class citizen.
You can absolutely find plenty of AOTC achievement getting raid teams that are fine with you only logging into raids.
I would fathom its quite easy. Guilds only pushing AOTC get hit by the recruitment boss quite hard. A person that would show up regularly to raid would be considered a huge win.
And you cant either.
Its incredibly common in the casual raid community.
If you are only trying to get AOTC…that is casual raiding. Casual raiding is not a bad thing. But getting AOTC is not some competitive field.
The only people who call casual players second class citizens are other casual players painting themselves as a victim.
The retail game has continuously been made more and more casual friendly. Every expansion since WotLK when subs were at their highest. With MAYBE the exception of WoD.
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You think M+ fosters community building? ROFL!!! Sorry bud, this system does the exact opposite.
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Please, expand on that.
Exactly this. There are plenty of guilds out there that only raid to do M+ and they quite literally don’t give a single fig if you do M+ at all with them, they just need people to show up to raid to get AOTC. It’s extremely common.
I play Classic 
I would still like to see retail actually reverted into a casual MMO again though, instead of trying to pander to people that think spamming the same dungeons in order to pad some fake internet score is fun.
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This guy is absolutely dilusional.
Can you back that up? Just because you like something doesn’t mean most people do.
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Retail has never been more of a casual MMO since inception.
Classic was more “hardcore” (when it was originally released) than retail atm.