With near universal approval can we get a response about dual spec please

I personally don’t think “turning off world buffs” was a departure from core game design. The buffs were seen as simply a cool thing to have, and I think you could argue that their impact on the meta was an unforeseen and potentially unwelcome consequence.

You can’t say that of the respec design. It has features that are intentionally inhibiting and the consequences of it are clearly intentional. 50g respec and no outlands trainers was not accidental. It was a design choice. Dual spec runs counterintuitive to those design choices.

My logic (and also Blizzards own stated caveat on changes) is that changes should not run counter to the design goals of the expansion - even when popular. Removing world buffs didn’t run counter to design goals as world buffs had clearly unintended outcomes. Blizzard did not anticipate players en-masse exploiting world buffs to trivialise high end raid encounters. It was an unintended outcome. But adding dual spec arguably does run counter to the intended design as mechanics are in place explicitly designed to make respecialisaiton inconvenient - by design.

Not all changes are equal. You can’t argue that because one change was permitted all changes should be permitted - that doesn’t necessarily follow. Because not all changes run counter to the design philosophy of this version of the game, but clearly some do. I’m arguing that dual spec does.

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no dual spec please and thank you

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Lmao? What?

I said I don’t like having to click my mouse 61 times every time I retrain, and you tell me you specialize in that? xD

Must take allot of skill, tell you what.

Edit: Also Riger already told me there’s an addon to fix that. So you literally posted the most pointless comment on the forums today lol… Learn to read a conversation.

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You are correct, but what you’re missing is that the original game design also led to unforeseen consequences. And those unforeseen consequences are what caused Blizzard to add dual-spec.

Keep in mind, WoW was one of the first RPG’s to allow people to respec, even though being able to completely change your character makes no sense in a roleplaying game.

I think Blizzard conceived of WoW as a true RPG. The only reason they offered the ability to respec was because of the sheer time investment in your character. In Diablo 2 if you messed up your talents you could just throw your character away and re-level another in a day. Blizzard understood people might have leveling specs, or they might just mess up their spec, but Blizzard ultimately wanted to effectively lock people into their specs to keep true to the RPG experience.

When the 50g respec was decided upon, the game hadn’t yet launched, MC didn’t even exist, no one knew anything about the game, you didn’t get gold from doing quests at max level, there really was no “end-game” as we imagine it, and there weren’t yet bots.

If you adjusted that original 50g cost to Classic inflation today, it would be somewhere around 250-500g.

When WoW first released there was no honor system, no battlegrounds. They added the Honor System something like six months later, and PvP remained largely unimportant and uncompetitive in Vanilla WoW. Plus the non-raid content was so easy you could do it with practically any group. In fact, for around the first year of WoW the level 60 dungeons were all 10-mans, and UBRS was a 15-man. I can remember people doing “class runs” through Strat and Scholo because everyone wanted that Dungeon 1 set.

While people may have wanted to respec at times in Vanilla WoW, there really was no pressure on anyone to be a min-maxing tryhard. But in TBC, PvP became increasingly the center of the game. At first the vast majority of the playerbase treated PvP much like they did Vanilla PvP. No one really had much resilience, no one was pushing too hard to rank. Arenas were just a fun extra that only a few PvP lovers really got into. But by late-TBC, PvP was basically the entire game for many people, raiding was just something to do on the side with your guild/friends.

In vanilla, prestige came from being in a guild which could clear the raids. In TBC, prestige came from having the gladiator title, or being one of the top teams on your realm. And because arena specs usually performed poorly in raids, this forced people to make a decision, either cough up the gold to respec every time you want to raid or pvp, or raid and/or PvP in a subpar spec.

Now, you could get away with a subpar spec in Vanilla and maybe some early TBC raids(especially after they were nerfed in patch 2.1). But Sunwell was very tightly tuned. If you didn’t show up to the raid in an optimal spec, you couldn’t kill the bosses.

The effect of the 50g respec was to basically split the TBC community in half. With some pretty much only raiding, and others pretty much only doing PvP, regardless of whether they wanted to do both.

After four years Blizzard finally realized that locking people into their specs is a stupid idea that only limits what players can do, and in many cases prevents them from playing the game. In vanilla, where PvP was mostly a time investment, this limit didn’t create the kind of backlash that came in late-TBC, when PvP became the most important aspect of the game, and where tanks were absolutely useless in PvP.

The original implementation of the dual-spec was aimed mostly at allowing people to raid and PvP without having to pay 100g. Healers also wanted dual-spec to make it easier for them to farm for raids. And others wanted dual-spec as a solution to the tank/healer shortage. But dual-spec is actually pretty limiting. It is not a free respec and most people chose a PvP spec as their second spec, so it didn’t necessarily address the healer/tank shortage in a meaningful way.

As I said, I’m not an advocate of dual-spec, but I hate the 50g respec. It is absolute trash. It is a literal cancer on the game and is killing it, and it serves no actual beneficial function. I have no idea why anyone defends it, other than their mistaken belief that it is some kind of amazing gold-sink.

Honestly…

Blizzard is NOTORIOUS for making changes to things that are popular because they can.

“Oh, they cleared the dungeon too fast! We didn’t intend for that! Time to change it.”

They have taken,changed and removed a lot of content from the game, for no reason.

Even going as far as to sneaking in unlisted changes during patches.

There is a reason why memes like, “Working as intended!” and “Blizzard hates fun” exist.

Now, with recent events, all of this gaslighting and sociopathic game development makes sense.

It removes the meaning of specs and choices in an RPG where decisions are meant to be impactful. It makes the game easier and hand holdy just like retail and is the first step to retail.

If you could pay 2000g and switch classes to a max level version entirely I’m sure many people would support that. Is that good game design? No.

Well no it doesn’t you still have to activate dual spec, still have to set it up, still have to gear the other spec and learn to play it, and be you know actually willing to do so.

Look at flying in retail… virtually noone complained about it yet blizzard tried to remove it on a whim and lost millions of subs and is still be passive aggressive about time gating it.

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That doesn’t counter anything I said whatsoever. Just because you have to click a button doesn’t mean it removes meaningful decisions.

Reported for trolling.

LoL so I’m trolling because you don’t understand that dual spec is not a magic button that instantly does everything involved with using another spec.

Yes it is. Setting up a talent spec isn’t a decision, it’s an action. Reported again for trolling.

LoL so you don’t realize that spec is already something that can be changed and all we’re talking about is the means by which you do so.

And yet I’m trolling while you lack basic knowledge of the game and the discussion.

Reported for trolling 3x.

It has already been exhaustively made clear in earlier posts why dual-spec would be a bad idea.
It would have massively negative consequences on game balance, increase min/maxing, take away from the MMO genre making your choices i. Game count even less, making it unrecognizable as a TBC clone and much more.
It seems to me that a lot of the dual spec fanatics just think about themselves and their laziness instead of the consequences their suggestions might have.
So, kindly, I would ask you to scroll back and actually read.

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RaF in original TBC was FAR more broken than this 58 boost is. But no one seems to care about that, huh? Wanna go back to #nochanges and see what an enormous difference that’d make?

People boosted themselves on multiple characters at once by “recruiting” themselves too. Not to mention botters getting maxed characters extremely fast with it. We’re better off now than back then in this regard.

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:rofl: Make that thread. I wanna see how far you get with that.

Do you even realize the ridiculous bonuses that you had? Literally, this is a one time 58 with no professions, awful gear. People leveled multiple characters at several times the rate back then…

Make the thread. Let’s see how far you get.

All it took was a quick search, thread was already made.

Enjoy.

Edit : Not even just the ridiculous xp boost, the perks themselves were baffling. Obviously you didn’t play much in the original TBC, because even without the game knowledge we have now, it was beyond broken back then too.

5 :blue_heart:s.

Here’s some highlights:

By the way, what with how this thread ended, most of the folks in it don’t even remember RAF even being relevant to anything. The last guy, Gralterik, basically sums it up: players were at the very least given an incentive to grind it out rather than skipping out entirely.

400% is substantial, but it’s hardly comparable to instant gratification.

And, again, it was a “catch up” thing implemented late TBC for folks who were on their way into Wrath.

Blizzard had ample time to implement an RaF in WoW Classic for TBC Classic, but they chose to implement a level 58 at the beginning.