I know right? How dare the Horde actually win things rather then just have one endless beatdown on one faction until the inevitable victory, the Alliance both secure in it’s power and moral superiority to reign as our immortal god emperors for all time.
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Let’s be honest, the start of the expansion was victory enough for the Horde for a very long time. They destroyed two nations, on their own terms. The fact one of them belonged to the Horde is immaterial. I mean, it’s laughable that the Developers feel that the Battle for Dazar’alor is supposed to be the Alliance’s comeback for Teldrassil.
So we’ll go from a Pyrrhic victory or two to getting our butts handed to us on a silver platter once again.
Imagine if the expansion started with Malfurion unleashing a gigantic Earthquake, utterly burying Tirisfal beneath the waves, and then when the Horde sought vengeance against the Night Elves, Tyrande lured them onto Teldrassil, evacuated all the Night Elves safely, and set it on fire.
Then, the Developers tell you that the, ‘Battle for Tirisgarde,’ is the Horde’s big come-back for Tirisfal and all the Forsaken buried alive beneath the ocean, and then you’re immediately told, “Oh, but the Alliance is going to start winning again.”
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Well, the angle I was going for was more “What is Blizzard playing at, rewarding genocide with even more winning?”.
But your comparison works, too.
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‘Let’s be honest’. Okay, i’ll be honest.
To be frank the notion that the start of this expansion was ‘victory enough’ for the Horde is bordering insanity. I think it is utterly laughable that people genuinely think that because Lordaeron was destroyed by Sylvanas on our terms it somehow makes the loss of my capital city and starting zone less painful, or that it doesn’t fill me with some desire for vengeance against Anduin and the Alliance for taking part.
Do you know how much I would love having a warfront for Lordaeron right now in exchange for losing my home on less then ideal terms? I would adore the opportunity to come back, moral justification at my back, swinging this way and that to gut Alliance goons just to know what’s happening there. Because at the moment I don’t know, do you know how much I care for Darkshore? For Ashenvale? for the bloody Tree? I don’t, and i’m expected by other people to take the sacking of a nation I don’t have a beef against as compensation for that.
But I understand why people are upset, I understand why the Alliance doesn’t like seeing it’s citizens slaughtered en mass, I understand the perspective of someone who would rather not see what had happened in the leadup of Teldrassil then endure the prepatch. Because I know what I desire from the story isn’t what they desire, if it was, I would of probably been playing Alliance before BfA started.
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Oh I think it makes it less painful for plenty of players. I’ve met very few Forsaken players particularly bothered by losing Lordaeron, mostly because Sylvanas is the one who did it and took out a large chunk of the Alliance in the process.
Here’s the difference between the predicament of the Night Elves and the Forsaken from what I’ve seen from players and NPCs both.
Lordaeron is a matter of Pride for the Forsaken.
Kalimdor is a matter of Identity for the Night Elves.
The Forsaken don’t seem bothered at losing Lordaeron because their Pride is in-tact. They lost it on their terms and took a massive chunk out of the Alliance in the process. They don’t need the land. Their pride is fine.
The Night Elves are incensed at losing Kalimdor because it is the core of the identity of their race, and without it, what are they? Purple High Elves, and the Alliance already has those, I’m playing one, so what does that even leave for the Night Elf players?
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I can’t say i’v had a fraction of the same experience, i’v met many Forsaken players who want to boot the Alliance out of Lordaeron and retake our capital city. Seems like people get attached to their starting zones, how crazy is that? And no, don’t tell me that Lordaeron is a matter of pride for the Forsaken, and not a matter of identity.
Lordaeron is our identity, and has been our identity ever since Silverpine. Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, now and forever. Undercity is not on our terms until every single human in gold plate in that city is gutted, cannibalized, and their bones left to rot in the blight pits.
Don’t tell me there aren’t Forsaken angry about Lordaeron, Lordaeron is our everything.
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Why can I only think of one Forsaken NPC who even mentions Lordaeron? And when he does, it’s not even about vengeance. He just misses the garden he had there. It was one from the group of them in Nazmir.
The Forsaken can be the Forsaken just about anywhere. That is why the land is not connected to their identity. Only to their pride. You said it yourself.
“Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, now and forever.”
That’s pride, not identity. Even your statements reek of pride rather than identity.
“Undercity is not on our terms until every single human in gold plate in that city is gutted, cannibalized, and their bones left to rot in the blight pits.”
I don’t think you understand, of course my statements reek of pride. My pride in my culture is part of my identity, nations build themselves upon the backs of pride, a culture without pride is a culture that is dead. It’s why I find the notion of people saying Rastakhan should of just surrendered at Zul’dazar so uniquely revolting. A king who surrenders his nation, a nation that’s primary thematic is their PRIDE, is a king that should be buried in an unmarked grave.
We built our identity on owning Lordaeron, and to us Lordaeron should remain. Sure only a few NPCs are mentioning Lordaeron right now, and guess what a common complaint of Forsaken players is? They don’t mention Lordaeron enough, we aren’t doing enough to take our land back.
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Except even you just stated there are terms you accept the loss. “Every single human in gold plate in that city is gutted, cannibalized, and their bones left to rot in the blight pits.” Your own words.
Now, go ask any Night Elf player under what circumstances the terms of losing the lands of the Kaldorei is acceptable. To a one they will tell you, “No circumstances.”
That’s what I meant about Lordaeron being a matter of Pride for the Forsaken, rather than identity. Even without the land, the identity of the Forsaken endures, as does their pride because they lost it on their terms. By their terms, I mean Sylvanas’, since she IS the Forsaken more or less. Which is likely why few to no Forsaken NPCs even mention the loss of Lordaeron to begin with.
Having that land was less about the Forsaken’s identity, and more about thumbing their rotting noses at the Alliance. It was tossed aside for the convenience of dealing a major blow to the Alliance’s army, and no one seems to feel the price paid for that was too high.
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To be fair, the night elves just received an entire patch to strike back and reclaim their homeland while the Forsaken are doing nothing about their own grim situation. They’ve become completely directionless as a race.
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‘Accept’ the loss? what kind of coward accepts loss? Just because we haven’t won yet doesn’t mean that I like it anymore then the Night Elves like turning their ships around and sailing away from Teldrassil. what made the original Forsaken so compelling is the sheer amount of zeal and ferociousness exercised in hacking apart every single filthy mongrel that dared set foot upon this earth.
There are still humans fighting in Lordaeron, we have not won until every one of them is killed AND we are sitting on our lands once again, or did you think what I meant by that was that merely killing you was enough? No, Lordaeron is where we built our empire, and if we allowed humans to thrive there then it would a permanent wound to our culture, to RELENT, to stop seeking VENGEANCE on the people who dared think they could harm us.
That is why Lordaeron is a central component to our culture. Because you even trying to take the land requires us to slaughter you and build our homes ontop of your bones. Spitting on those who would strike at us is our culture.
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You said it yourself. That culture doesn’t require land. The Forsaken could’ve settled on any land and that would still be their culture. This is why the land is NOT part of the identity, not the same way that Kalimdor is for the Night Elves. This is a matter of Pride for the Forsaken, not Identity.
No, the culture requires land. Because giving up the land you just took takes our culture, we have not exacted vengeance on you if we let you live, we cannot make a twisted monument to your failure out of your bones and entrails if we leave you there, it is not enough to make you pay, we must also live on that land to emphasize our defiance of you.
To leave you be would be an act of surrender, surrender is unacceptable. Pride is our identity, owning Lordaeron and turning it into an empire that flies in the face of humanity IS our culture, not living in the burnt husk of Ashenvales corpse.
When lol??
So we’re getting to a point of agreement. The culture requires land, just not specifically Lordaeron.
If the Forsaken’s homeland was, say, Northrend, then the culture would be the same. They’d still have that same pride and need to gut whoever dares try to take the land from them?
So, the Forsaken are not dependent upon a specific land, like the Kaldorei are. Kalimdor is home to the Ancients/Wild Gods, to Hyjal and the Well of Eternity, to everything that makes up the Night Elves’ culture. Take the land away and you’re essentially left with purple Proto-High Elves.
No, it requires Lordaeron specifically because Lordaeron is the home of humanity at it’s Zenith. Lordaeron is the nation that the was the best, the strongest, the most religious of every other human kingdom on Azeroth. We defined ourselves not just by being the people who lived there, but by inverting that culture in every aspect as an extra middle finger to the rest of humanity who abandoned us.
We turned the center of light based faith in Azeroth, Tyrs Fall, into an active rejection of the Light. There is no human history to Northrend, none of us used to live there, none of us care about owning it to spite the humans or because it was where we used to live in life and we’ve turned it into something that reflects us in undeath.
Unless Northrend was human Jerusalem, it wouldn’t fit.
If the Kaldorei are dependent on Kalimdor to be who they once were, then that character growth you spoke about is definitely needed. They shouldn’t be dependent on a place for their identity.
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I think you’re reading rather a lot into things. I don’t think Lordaeron has ever been called the, ‘Human Jerusalem.’ I mean, it was a center for Light Worship in the world, but then again, so is Stormwind. Faol, the man who ordained the first Paladins, came from Stormwind, after all. The set-up your describing would require the Forsaken building their empire in Northshire, not Lordaeron.
But, to each their own I suppose. We have two very different views here, and I’m basing mine on what NPCs say and do. Forsaken NPCs seem pretty okay with the loss of Lordaeron, so I can only conclude it never meant much to them. Or if there were Forsaken to which Lordaeron meant something, they were killed by Sylvanas in, ‘Before the Storm.’
You unlock this after the raid on both factions but posting the horde one just in case you dont believe me, check minute 1 : 40
If Nathanos says the alliance is about to win, then you better believe it bruh
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I said logically. I don’t think anyone was counting on getting a super saiyan upgrade when they were going to defend their home.
I meant during the gameplay. I’d rather have Malfurion or Tyrande speaking to me throughout the warfront instead of Maeiv’s horrible Batman voice.
I didn’t not believe you, just wanted to know where that was said