Why the grief between M+ and Raids?

M+ is the red-headed stepchild of 10man raiding, and we know how that went…

I mean that I guess is the heart of the matter, you think you should get the bestest gear and no one else who doesn’t do the content? I would say I do have some care in this.

I think people should do the content if they want the gear from it. M+ being able to give raid gear much easily and wanting even more is making the rewards in the content I can get useless.

Going up a key level in M+ does not change any mechanics, it simply adds 10% more health and damage.

Mathematically, this is equivalent to you doing ~9% less damage, and having ~9% less HP. (0.9090… x 1.1 = 1).

So in a very real sense, there is no difference at all between doing a 11 at 630 ilvl, and a 10 at 621 ilvl. Hence the conclusion that pushing M+ is just taking gear off to make the content artificially harder.

So again, you don’t want to share, I get it.

Should I be able to get all the rewards that comes from content outside of raids in raids?
Then why do you want raid rewards outside of raids?

1 Like

It’s probably never going to happen, but I fully believe all three endgame PvE content types should be able to stand on their own. You shouldn’t have to go do something you don’t like to keep your progression on.

They could just as easily make all three - delves, M+, and raids - have loot tables containing everything one needs to build BiS sets.

This is a very common misconception. You are thinking of mechanics in terms of affixes and things in raid like soak, spread, stack, etc. Mythic+ has some of those things, but not nearly as many. When you start getting into higher keys than weekly vault keys, the mechanics show up in a very different way. All of a sudden those bolt casts that were ignored are one shotting your priest if they go off, etc. You have to coordinate externals and defensives in ways that you didn’t have to consider in a weekly vault key, etc.

Right now what we have is a compromise and nobody is happy with a compromise.
But it makes the world turn.

I think you should be able to, I never had opposition to it. :slight_smile:

What’s strange is that by your definition, any other end-game pillar of content that provides a comparable item-level track to Mythic Raid makes mythic raiding “unrewarding.” There’s no solution to that problem if that’s how you see it because the dev team looks to be committed to providing multiple end-game pillars to suit PvPers, Raiders, M+ers, and now Delvers. The only solution to your issue is that only Raid would provide myth-track gear and that’s not a viable solution for the devs to consider.

I do think there’s an issue with +8 crests being infinitely farmable (up to the seasonal cap) and if you only do Raid then you’re unlikely to hit that seasonal cap. You should be able to hit the season cap at some point if you kill 6 Mythic bosses per week and never miss a week.

M+ probably needs some form of lockout based on track-level like: limit of 8 myth-track opportunities (not actual acquisitions) per week from end-of run, somewhere in the +12 to +14 keystone level. That means adding myth-track to end-of-run at some keystone level since M+ only gets one piece per week from the Vault (which mythic raiders also get on top of chances at myth-track gear on each boss killed).

More opportunities to farm crests in M+. More opportunities for myth-track gear in Mythic Raid… they could balance those two issues better and Mythic Raiders would still probably complain (seemingly such a bitter sub-segment of the PvE community; nothing’s ever good enough).

Edit: Looks like crests will be a bit easier, but still no buff to crest drop rate in Raids :frowning:

At the same point though the rewards you get for raiding make it impossible to push keys into he title range unless you mythic raid as well.

Both player bases have issues with needing to do content they don’t find fun.

As far as needing the gear to feel rewarded I can’t say I relate to that. In many seasons I’ve pushed past rewards just to push and see what I can do. Being able to clear the content is the reward.

What doesn’t make sense though is that if the gear was the only way you felt rewarded than you wouldn’t care where it came from M+, delves, or even just mailed once a month. You seem to enjoy raiding which is why you want the gear to drop from there and are using it as a post hoc rationalization, at least thats the way it seems.

It’s working for the moment, but more and more cracks are appearing as time goes on. The present setup won’t work indefinitely. They’re eventually going to have to look at changing the way the different lanes overlap.

M+ is about executing a smaller amount of mechanics perfectly, raids are about executing many more mechanics but having some smaller place for misstep which is less depending of how soon you kill a boss. When the race for world first kill a boss they did everything at the standard you expect high keys to do but with a higher level of coordination.

But that’s not a mechanics change.

It’s the exact same spell that works the exact same way as M0 that you can counterplay the exact same way. Only now it does 300% more damage.

They don’t change the mechanic, just the punishment for messing up.

I mean you see the rise of Classic with people being able to play the old way, because as much as M+ is popular it is much more divisive than when raiding was.

Yeah, that checks out. But as soon as you do less and take more DMG, all of a sudden there are mechanics that weren’t there beforehand. They were, but they were perhaps not as important or ignored. Raid is actually balanced when it is created. They care about raid. Every situation has a solution. The mechanics in mythic+ often do not have those simple solutions. Eventually you have to find a way to stop 8 casts with 4 kicks, while moving out of things, coordinating defensives, externals,and having mythic raid level throughput.

I do certainly enjoy the old ways, but I don’t think they’re viable in the long term either. They’ve become little more than a neat distraction before people go back to clamoring for the same things they always have.

M+ is here to stay, for good or ill. …And the game’s going to keep leaning into them more and more.

Because classic raiding is so simple and easy you can kill raid bosses with half the raid being 55. It’s like comparing LFR participation to mythic

What’s your explaining is current compromise and current compromise work as long as mythic gear is very few outside of raids so at least some gear in raids is still useful when you kill a boss.