Why SV is so hated?

[Floplag-destromath (Floplag)]

Because of the nostalgia for ranged SV, nothing more.
I enjoy it a lot myself as well, dont get the ire at it, but ive never been nostalgic.

[Pewganklulz-sargeras]

I switched over 100% from my main DK. Survival is the most fun I’ve had in a long time. Give me a dps boost for shadowlands and I’m happy since I wont have my mind flay to carry me in pvp lol

[Coupes-tichondrius]

old sv was applying 2 dots and then hitting explosive shot when lnl procced.

survival is one of the most interesting (and fun) melee specs in the game, and if marks was more like old hunter and less this weird standstill sniper lonewolf niche they pushed it into, i doubt people would care.

[Danieltoon-sargeras]

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

That changes nothing. Every classes have changed over the years… the majority have accepted it and moved on.

Fair point. There were numerous changes to Hunters over the years. I’ve always accepted them and moved on - until now. What they did to Hunters in Legion was unforgivable, and it needs to be fixed. It’s abusurd they did it in the first place, and it’s mind-boggling they haven’t fixed it yet.

[Fabindol-sargeras]

Marksman plays nothing like it did in previous iterations. Where are the MM hunters complaining that the spec was “Deleted”? BM plays nothing like it did in previous iterations. Where are the BM hunters complaining that the spec was deleted? Survival is fun. Its unique. Its great in PvP and PvE. Get over it. When it was ranged it was played if it did more DPS than its carbon copy spec MM. MM was played otherwise. End this melodramatic “Survival was deleted” crap. Its so annoying.

[Brokenoptics-area-52]

I have only been playing for a few weeks now, tried most of the classes and specs and I LOVE SV hunter so much. It’s fun, def not the most powerful, but I’m not an elitist looking to top any charts, I’m just trying to enjoy the game. I’ve been levelling in pug dungeons and world quests and have yet to have any trouble with content or be shamed for playing SV. Obviously if you’re looking to play top-tier content then you should play top-tier specs but hopefully they will bring a little bit to the table for SV with the release of Shadowlands so that it’s not so far behind on DPS or utility. Either way, SV is my bae.

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

@Fabindol-sargeras

Where are the MM hunters complaining that the spec was “Deleted”?

Oh, I complained plenty during Legion. I hated Legion MM soooooo much.

I find BFA to be much closer to the design/spirit of the pre-Legion MM (especially Vanilla/BC), and while BFA’s design is different, it’s not unrecognizable.

Legion was an abomination.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Mashugana-area-52

So, in fact, it’s so fun that I came back out of WoW retirement just to play it. And it’s a blast!

Other than this being your own opinion, you love the current survival so much you’re posting on a lvl 100 priest. How interesting.

@Mashugana-area-52

Vanilla-Mop was dominated by even patches of Beast Mastery or Markesman with the rare few playing Survival.

Rare few? There were plenty of times from Vanilla - WoD when survival was the top hunter dps spec and thus tons of people would have been playing it because fotm.

@Pewganklulz-sargeras

I switched over 100% from my main DK. Survival is the most fun I’ve had in a long time.

Other than it’s your opinion, you say you made it your main but you post on a monk. How interesting.

@Fabindol-sargeras

Marksman plays nothing like it did in previous iterations.

MM plays more like MM did in every previous iteration then MSV plays like RSV.
BM plays more like BM did in every previous iteration then MSV plays like RSV.

@Fabindol-sargeras

Survival is fun.

Glad you enjoy it.

@Fabindol-sargeras

its carbon copy spec MM.

MM and RSV were never carbon copies.

@Brokenoptics-area-52

I have only been playing for a few weeks now, tried most of the classes and specs and I LOVE SV hunter so much. It’s fun,

Glad you’re having fun.

@Watermist-skywall

I hated Legion MM soooooo much

That I literally quit playing hunter all together.

@Watermist-skywall

I find BFA to be much closer to the design/spirit of the pre-Legion MM (especially Vanilla/BC), and while BFA’s design is different, it’s not unrecognizable.

Pretty much this.

[Fabindol-sargeras]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

MM and RSV were never carbon copies.

Obviously this is hyperbole. But survival and MM had their focus builder, and then their spender. They were both very basic specs. And player similarly. That is literally why blizzard made the change. There is no need for two specs that both use bow, both have builders, and both have spenders.

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Glad you enjoy it.

Thank you.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Fabindol-sargeras

There is no need for two specs that both use bow, both have builders, and both have spenders.

Then why not drastically change BM to be exclusively pets? It uses a bow. It has a builder. It has a spender.

[Fabindol-sargeras]

Because it doesn’t feel like MM/RSV at all. If you played during MoP/WoD you cannot deny that those two specs felt incredibly similar. I’d argue that BM in WoD felt very similar to them as well. Thats what Legion did. It made them feel different.

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Other than this being your own opinion, you love the current survival so much you’re posting on a lvl 100 priest. How interesting.

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Other than it’s your opinion, you say you made it your main but you post on a monk. How interesting.

The classic I have nothing to say, but disagree so I’ll attack the avatar that you use even though it is irrelevant.

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@Fabindol-sargeras

Obviously this is hyperbole. But survival and MM had their focus builder, and then their spender. They were both very basic specs. And player similarly. That is literally why blizzard made the change. There is no need for two specs that both use bow, both have builders, and both have spenders.

Arguing that with some is like saying they dont look like their siblings at all. They will see every small difference… but anyone outside will say they look alike.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

The classic I have nothing to say, but disagree so I’ll attack the avatar that you use even though it is irrelevant.

Not relevant you say? You have 2 people saying they love melee surv so much it brought them back to wow and that it’s their main yet won’t even post on their hunter.

But I forgot. You don’t have anything relevant to offer so you call people haters and crusaders.

You keep up with this nonsensical argument that all classes changed over the years so changing from rsv to msv is exactly the same as every other spec change, when RSV is the only spec that had it’s role completely changed. The problem with this argument is two fold. It implies that on some level hunters didn’t change over the years with everyone else at the same time and that all changes are basically equal. Well hate to break it to you, but hunters changed over the years with everyone else. Over the years hunters went from having some melee capability to being 100% exclusive ranged, though I suppose you could make the argument that BM is a hybrid range/melee because of their pet.

Regardless, at the end of the day no other spec when from being a caster to anything else. No other spec went from being melee to anything else. No other spec went from being a tank to anything else. The closest thing anyone has been able to argue is DKs having their ability to tank removed from all three specs, when all three specs were able to tank and do melee dps.

Hate to inform you of this but 2 specs going from tank and melee to just melee and 1 spec going from tank and melee to just tank is no where close to going from ranged to melee.

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

I really think this specific discussion is fruitless.

The DKs going from being both a tank and melee DPS to just melee DPS was indeed a big change; I remember the outcry on the forums during the day. (That’s the entire reason I even brought up the DK change to Azagorod a couple weeks ago. I suppose I’m partially to blame for this current discussion.)

RSV being flat-out replaced with MSV (the Legion version was pretty much unrecognizable when compared to the WoD version) is an entirely different experience (going from ranged damage to Melee damage).

We’ll only go in circles arguing this because the two things are different. The DK change was pretty harsh, though I think Dawnspirit was more right than not when she pointed out that the DK change occurred after only one expansion, whereas the SV change occurred in the fifth expansion so there was a LOT more people impacted by the SV change because of the time spent with RSV (years).

Apples and oranges, people.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Watermist-skywall

Dawnspirit was more right than not when she pointed out that the DK change occurred after only one expansion

Wasn’t me.

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

Oh, apologies. I lost track with all the posts going back and forth on this topic.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Fabindol-sargeras

Obviously this is hyperbole. But survival and MM had their focus builder, and then their spender. They were both very basic specs. And player similarly. That is literally why blizzard made the change. There is no need for two specs that both use bow, both have builders, and both have spenders.

Then there should also be no three specs that all dual wield melee weapons, all have combo point generators, and all have combo point spenders. Oh wait.

Why exactly is there no need for two ranged weapon specs when we have over a dozen specs that use melee weapons?

@Fabindol-sargeras

Because it doesn’t feel like MM/RSV at all. If you played during MoP/WoD you cannot deny that those two specs felt incredibly similar. I’d argue that BM in WoD felt very similar to them as well. Thats what Legion did. It made them feel different.

I played between mid-Wrath and mid-Legion. No, they did not feel similar in MoP/WoD. In fact, Cata and MoP were the high point of many classes in terms of class design, including Hunters. Boiling a class down to “Hurr builder spender” on paper doesn’t really represent what the spec feels like to play.

Furthermore, even if they were too similar, that is not proper justification to delete Survival and replace it with a spec that isn’t even a traditional Hunter spec. The idea that Blizzard couldn’t have given Survival an even more defined fantasy/playstyle is ridiculous. Do you think that there is only one way to make a ranged weapon focused spec? Why can we have so many specs that focus on their melee weapons, but only one that focuses on their ranged weapons?

Why would anyone think that it is a proper response to an insufficiently defined spec to completely delete that spec and replace it with something completely new? Why would you think it is acceptable for Blizzard to just start deleting any specs that they don’t feel like putting more effort into designing?

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Cosimo-daggerspine

Am I missing something major here? Why do people hate this spec so much?

@Senirel-argent-dawn

Probably because it was created by essentially deleting a spec quite a few people enjoyed. If Blizz had made melee SV a 4th spec rather than nuking ranged SV it probably wouldn’t be as big of an issue

This.

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@Cosimo-daggerspine

So after reading the replies I’m curious about the original ranged SV spec. I only started in BFA and I know how BM and MM are different. But it’s just difficult for me to imagine that there was another ranged spec have a completely different yet fun play style that a lot of people loved. What was the play style of SV before this melee spec?

The old SV was designed to focus on DoTs and consistency. It held a theme and a fantasy that revolved around the idea of enhancing ammunition/arrows by the application of various poisons/animal venom along with attaching explosives.

Signature abilities of the spec were

Cobra Shot - Focus generator with a short cast time. Previously designed to be SV’s equivalent to Steady Shot(MM) but dealing nature damage and interacting with Serpent Sting.

Explosive Shot - Short term DoT. Dealt instant Fire damage as well as additional damage every second for a few seconds after being applied.
Gained more benefit from a passive called Lock & Load.

Black Arrow - Instant attack that applied a periodic damage effect which dealt Shadow damage over time. In later expansions it by default also interacted with Explosive Shot via the passive called Lock & Load, which allowed for you to randomly gain extra charges of Explosive Shot.
Originally(in Wrath of the Lich King), it was designed to be a damage-amp for our other abilities while active on a target.

Serpent Sting - For a long time, not exclusive to Survival(however, later came to be just that), the main goal for SV when it came to Serpent Sting was to empower/improve it from its default state.

Examples: Cobra Shot extended it’s duration or Multi-Shot which applied Serpent Sting to all targets hit(effect called Serpent Spread).

In addition to that, the old SV was also always the spec to focus on improving our traps. In several ways. Something that MM did not really do at all.

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This is just a summary ofc.

If you’re interested to see one version of what it could’ve been made into for Legion and forward, see below:

[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion Survival [4th spec]

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In short, there was a clear difference between the old SV and for example MM as, while SV focused on the above, MM was always about the theme/fantasy of you becoming a sharpshooter. Someone who strives to have perfect aim.

Mechanically, something like that can be portrayed like MM where abilities have a cast time(to simulate the process of aiming the weapon, one way to do it), resulting in abilities that deal high damage on impact. This would naturally lead to you having a playstyle that focuses a lot on burst potential/windows.

Again, a brief summary.

Meaning, the exact opposite of what the old SV was about.

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Anyway, despite all the arguments and discussions you see regarding the whole “melee vs. range”-debate on forums like this, and also regarding what similarities or differences there were between the specs back then, none of it actually matters. None of it makes for a valid argument as to why SV should’ve been changed to melee.

Why?

If the old SV was too similar to MM at the time(not saying that it was, but just for the sake of it…), why didn’t they just “fix” that, going into Legion. Just like what they did to all other specs.

Why didn’t they double down on the fantasy and theme that surrounded the old SV/RSV?
Why didn’t they give it it’s own set of talents? Allowing you to focus on your individual preferences towards it’s core playstyle.

Those are the worthwhile questions/topics. Together with the question of: “What could SV/RSV have been made to look like in the modern game?”.

[Hasteza-stormrage]

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

The said drama is only brought up by the same small crew of crusaders.

Please just stop. The fact is, a lot of people don’t like the spec. This isn’t a vocal minority either. The dislike for the spec is multiplied because this melee spec replaced an entire ranged spec for a ranged class that many people enjoyed already.

I don’t speak for everyone obviously, but I’m maining survival. I’m only maining it because I HATE the other 2 spec’s current iterations. I’d drop everything in a heartbeat to get ranged survival back.

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

@Hasteza-stormrage

Please just stop. The fact is, a lot of people don’t like the spec. This isn’t a vocal minority either.

Then please good sir, stop thinking you arent a minority. The dislike is due to a change like any other. Nothing super special a bout it. You are not a special snowflake, you are just like all others.

I would say it is more annoying to see people play the victim / cry rather than giving positive feedback - ideas that makes sense.

Stop clinging to the past, move on and have fun in the game. If you cannot, find a new game or stop playing it for a time.